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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 440723 times)

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1070 on: May 16, 2018, 07:46:22 PM »
Cantarella,

So you determined that Vatican II taught error and therefore the pope cannot be the pope.  But since the "magisterium is the rule of faith," how did you determine that the magisterium is teaching error?  What possible criteria are you using to judge that the magisterium is teaching error and therefore cannot be the magisterium? 
Just out of curiosity, have you ever noticed that what was taught during and since Vatican 2 is not the same thing that was taught before Vatican 2?

Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1071 on: May 16, 2018, 08:13:11 PM »
On the Apostolical and Infallible Authority of the Pope : when teaching the faithful, and on his relation to a general council

Published 1809

https://archive.org/details/OnTheApostolicalAndInfallible

trad 123,

I have enjoyed reading this book. It was not published in 1809 but in 1869.  The author is a Jesuit with a doctorate of divinity.  I have found the term "rule of faith" used about 15 times in the text.  Since the book is dealing directly with the question of the Pope and his engagement of the Magisterium, I thought I would post a few examples of his usage of the phrase.


Quote
“Testimony of all the general councils of the East and West, declaring the judgment of the Chair of St. Peter at Rome, to be the infallible Rule of Faith.”  
Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., D.D., On the Apostolic Authority of the Pope When Teaching the Faithful, and on His Relation to a General Council
That is, the “judgment” is the Rule of Faith.  What do we call the judgment?  Dogma!


Quote
Agatho likewise asserted his Apostolical authority in his letter to the Emperor, whom he reminds that the Church of Rome has never strayed from the path of truth into the by-ways of error, and that her decisions have always been received as a rule of faith, not merely by individuals, but also by the Councils.  “Haec Apostolica ecclesia nunquam a via veritatis in qualibet erroris parte deflexa est.” This is the rule of true faith. “Haec est verae fidei regula.”  Alluding to the words, “Confirm thy brethren,” the Pontiff remarks that the successors of St. Peter have always strengthened the Church in the truth.  Hence he infers that “all bishops, priests and laics, who wish to please the God of truth, must study to conform to the Apostolical rule of the primitive faith, founded on the rock Peter, and preserved by him from error.”
Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., D.D., On the Apostolic Authority of the Pope When Teaching the Faithful, and on His Relation to a General Council
“Her decisions have been received as a rule of faith.”  We call these “decisions” Dogma.


Quote
The consent, as we have shown, is not and cannot be sufficiently clear and definitive to be a rule of faith. The Pope’s definitions, on the other hand, are in precise and positive terms and immediate answers, word for word, to the questions proposed.
Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., D.D., On the Apostolic Authority of the Pope When Teaching the Faithful, and on His Relation to a General Council
We call these “clear and definitive... definitions" Dogma.


Quote
A Judge has a rule before him, the law of the country, and he must strive to decide according to its dictates. For the Bishops, that rule is the teaching of the Church grounded on the authority of the Holy Scripture and tradition.  By their “definiens subscripsi” the Bishops declare, that the definition of the Council to which they subscribe, in their conviction, is in accordance with the faith based upon the Holy Scripture and tradition. When it is confirmed by the Papal approbation, the Divine Law is more clearly expressed by the definition, and the Bishops, acting as Judges, declare it to be their faith also, and by their subscription, announce its accordance with the normal rule of faith.  We would recall in this connection what we before mentioned concerning the subscription of the Bishops to the acts of the Eight General Council : “I, N. N., Bishop of N., have subscribed the profession of faith made by me in the person of his Holiness, Pope Adrian, Supreme Pontiff.”
By such a declaration, they affirm with St. Jerome, that they believe with the faith of the Head of the Church; that his faith is their faith; that that is an article of faith which he, as the Head of the Church, pronounces to be such, and their “definiens subscripsi” is to show that they were aware of what they did, and intended it, and it was to be the evidence that such faith was the faith of the whole Church.
 Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., D.D., On the Apostolic Authority of the Pope When Teaching the Faithful, and on His Relation to a General Council
The bishops “subscribe to the definition” as their “normal rule of faith.”  We calls these “definitions” Dogma.


Quote
Moreover, Bossuet is well aware that by the formula of Adrian II, which he holds himself bound to defend, whosoever subscribes it is obliged to obey the decisions of the Pope actually occupying the Apostolic See, as “a rule of faith;” neither could he be ignorant that the Fathers of the ecuмenical Councils recognized in every individual Pope, the rock upon which the Church is built, the divinely commissioned teacher of the faith, the Vicar of Christ in whom Peter always lives.
Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., D.D., On the Apostolic Authority of the Pope When Teaching the Faithful, and on His Relation to a General Council
We call these “decisions of the Pope” Dogma.


Quote
It is only under the same supposition that we can account for the action of Adrian II toward the Eight General Council, in the time of Photius, in sending them a letter for their subscription, which contained the following declarations: “First of all, true salvation is found in keeping the right rule of faith, which is to submit to the decisions of the Apostolic See, according to the promises of Christ to Peter, ‘Thou art a rock,’” etc. That this is true is proved by the fact that the Apostolic See has always preserved the Catholic religion immaculate, and professed its holy doctrine. “Quia in Sede Apostolica immaculate est eemper Catholica servata religio et sancta celebrate doctrina.”
Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., D.D., On the Apostolic Authority of the Pope When Teaching the Faithful, and on His Relation to a General Council
The “decisions of the Apostolic See” that we “submit to” as the “right rule of faith” are called Dogmas.


Quote
How, otherwise, could Agatho, in the face of the Council, assert that the Roman See has never deviated from the path of truth? “Haec Apostolica Ecclesia nunquam a via veritatis in qualibet erroris parte deflexa est.”  How, otherwise , could he insert, in his instructions to his Legates, that, after the decision contained in his dogmatical letter to the Council, the Fathers could not discuss the dogma, but must simply subscribe it as a rule of faith?  “Non tamquam de incertis contendere, sed ut certa et immutabilia compendiosa definition proferre.”  We have seen with what joy the Fathers obeyed his decree. ……. Yet neither he nor the Fathers of the Council had one word to say of his case, nor objected to the “rule of faith” as proposed by Adrian, but subscribed in the memorable way that history has made known to us.
Rev. F. X. Weninger, S.J., D.D., On the Apostolic Authority of the Pope When Teaching the Faithful, and on His Relation to a General Council
Needs no further comment.  They must “subscribe to it (the Dogma) as a rule of faith.”


The Magisterium is the insufficient material and instrumental causes of Dogma.  God is the formal and final causes of dogma.  The Magisterium is the means, Dogma the ends.  "It is the ends that are primary in practical matters." I have placed the last sentence in quotations because it is a fundamental rule of Thomistic philosophy.  The means to the end cannot be the end itself.

If anyone is interested in learning more about the Fr. Weninger, S.J., he has a Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Xavier_Weninger

Drew


Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1072 on: May 16, 2018, 08:23:04 PM »
Just out of curiosity, have you ever noticed that what was taught during and since Vatican 2 is not the same thing that was taught before Vatican 2?

TKGS,

I know that because I keep Dogma as the rule of faith. Therefore, I can see what was taught at Vatican II is not in accord with the Dogmas that constitute the formal objects of divine and Catholic faith.

But S&Sers deny that Dogma is the rule of faith.  They obviously think that Vatican II taught error.  What I want to know is what criteria they are using to come to this determination since it is not by Dogma.  It is particularly a problem because they hold the "magisterium as the rule of faith."  So they apparently are declaring that their rule of faith has failed as a rule of faith.  So what is taking its place?

Drew

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1073 on: May 16, 2018, 08:44:31 PM »
Drew,

What is your criteria for determining what teachings are DOGMA what what teachings are Satanic Verses?

Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #1074 on: May 16, 2018, 08:58:01 PM »
For the 94th time now, a true formal heretic is someone who pertinaciously rejects the RULE OF FAITH.

If I think (mistakenly) that the Church has taught PROPOSITION X, I am a formal heretic if I reject X ... even if the rejection of X is not materially heretical (since the Church never actually taught it).  That's like being guilty of mortal sin for stealing if I take $1,000 that I THINK belongs to someone else ... even if it turns out that it was mine.  Materially not a theft, but formally a theft.

If I think (mistakenly) that the Church has NOT taught PROPOSITION Y, I am not a formal heretic for rejecting PROPOSITION Y.

What's key is whether I am implicitly rejecting the very RULE OF FAITH behind all the dogmas.

But this does not register to your brain.

Ladislaus,
 
This is not a discussion of the subjective morality of heresy but its objective qualities.  You act as if heresy does not have a definition.  The Catholic Encyclopedia defines heresy by quoting St. Thomas who says that heresy is “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas.”  
 
Canon laws defines heresy as: "The offense of one who, having been baptized and retaining the name of Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts any of the truths that one is under obligation of divine and Catholic faith to believe (cf. Codex iuris canonici [Rome 1918; repr. Graz 1955]c. 751)."
 
“Truths that one is under obligation of divine and Catholic faith to believe” are called DOGMAS.
 
A heretic fails to keep Dogma as his rule of faith.  This definition necessarily means that those who keep Dogma as their rule of faith are not heretics.
 
What you are conflating is the definition of heresy and apostasy.  The denial of the Dogma that the Magisterium is a revealed truth of God, is therefore denial of all revealed truth, which makes the person an apostate.  There is a difference between heresy and apostasy but that is not convenient for you.
 
You never seek clarity but glory of Ladislaus.

You have no pope, no magisterium, no rule of faith, and the church you belong to will never have these necessary attributes of the Catholic Church.  So when you get to where you are going, do not say that you were not warned.
 
Drew