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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 441578 times)

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #800 on: April 26, 2018, 02:50:22 PM »
Deleted (already addressed in this thread).

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #801 on: April 26, 2018, 06:10:36 PM »
No other papal claimant in history has ever manifested such inexcusable pertinacity in explicit heresy as Jorge "Francis" Bergoglio; who not only professes heretical doctrines like the conciliar popes have done, but explicitly, unequivocally, and adamantly, not merely contradicts, but outright rejects dogma. This point will be explained at length in vol. 2 of my book. As Bellarmine, Ballerini, and Cappellari (Gregory XVI), explain, such a one would fall from office, and manifest by his obstinate heresy, that he had (in Ballerini's words) "in some manner abdicated" the supreme pontificate. This doctrine of tacit abdication was incorporated into the 1917 Code of Canon Law, and remains essentially unchanged in the 1983 Code. Such loss of office takes place ipso facto, i.e. automatically; ipso jure, i.e. by operation of the law itself; and therefore, sine ulla declaratione, without any judgment pronounced by competent authority -- as set forth in canon 188 n. 4.

Canon 188.4 can only be applied analogically to the case of a heretic pope.  For a more authoritative explanation of the loss of papal office for heresy, I recommend an article by Fr. Girlanda, the former rector of the Gregorian University, who holds a Ph.D in canon law, which he taught for at various faculties of the Gregorian for four decades.  

The article titled, which is title "The Vacancy of the Roman See", appeared in Civilta Cattolica in 2013, and was discussed by Roberto de Mattie at this years' Catholic Family News conference.  Professor de Mattie noted that Fr. Ghirlanda is neither a traditionalist nor a progressive, but is simply a scholar who had gathered and studied the past thousand years of canonical tradition concerning the loss of papal office. In the article, Fr. Ghirlanda explains that there are four ways the papal see can become vacant. He writes: 
 
Fr. Ghirlanda: “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation."
 
Concerning numbers 2 and 3, he goes on to explain that because 'the first see is judged by no one', the Cardinals would not depose the Pope, but would only declare the fact of his heresy or insanity, at which time the see would become vacant.
 
Fr. Ghirlanda: “There is the case, admitted by doctrine, of notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, into which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but only when teaching as a “private doctor,” who does not demand the assent of the faithful ... However, in such cases, because ‘the first see is judged by no one’ (Canon 1404) no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but only a declaration of the fact would be had, which would have to be done by the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome. Such an eventuality, however, although foreseen in doctrine, is held to be totally unlikely (…) The certainty and the perpetuity of madness, like the totality of insanity, must be ascertained through accurate medical reports. The cessation from the primatial office would only be declared by the Cardinals, at least those present in Rome; therefore also in this case there would be no deposition.”
 
What Fr. Ghirlanda is saying is that if a pope falls into heresy or insanity, the Church does not remove him from office by deposing him.  Instead, the Cardinals ascertain and declare the fact of heresy or insanity, at which time the office becomes vacant ipso facto.  The loss of office does not occur until the Cardinals investigate and declare the fact.
 
It is also worth noting that an ipso facto deprivation differs from an ipso facto excommunication, since the latter does not require human judgment or a declaration, whereas the former does.  Cardinal Tommaso de Vio explains this distinction, and ovserves that it is the canonists.
 
“The power of jurisdiction is by man’s appointment: both giving it and taking it away belong to human judgment. I said ‘much less’ because more is required to incur deprivation ipso facto than to incur excommunication, since incurring the censure does not require a declaration, whereas incurring deprivation does, according to the canonists.”


Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #802 on: April 26, 2018, 07:35:21 PM »
The Tridentine Catechism makes mention of the existence of "many solemn rites and ceremonies" used in the Sacrifice of the Mass, none of which should be deemed useless or superfluous.

If Paul VI was indeed Pope, you are not allowed to condemn his Novus Ordo rite without falling into Anathema.
Cantarella, by holding that everything concerning the government of the liturgy is wholly a matter of mere Church discipline and by holding that the pope has the authority to create new rites for use in the solemn administration of the sacraments, you yourself are making the many "solemn rites and ceremonies" that Trent is referring to superfluous. If you think that the traditional rites can be omitted by pastors without sin and replaced by new ones then you obviously do not think that they are of great value. Drew, by expressing his belief that the received (traditional) and approved rites are necessary attributes of the Catholic faith without which the faith cannot be known or communicated to others, is showing that he understands the solemn rites to be the exact opposite of superfluous. By claiming that the pope has the authority to create a new rite of Mass you are essentially saying that if Pius XII (or whoever you consider the last true pope to have been) had created the Novus Ordo, then you would have been bound in consistency with your belief to accept the new rite as containing nothing that is not holy. You have left yourself no standard by which to judge otherwise. It is no surprise that many sedevacantists end up becoming practitioners of the Novus Ordo religion. You share the same error as the "conservatives."

To say that Trent's canons on the holiness of the ceremonies of the Mass apply to new rites is like saying that Trent's decree on the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture applies to the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition of the Bible. Trent's decree on the inerrancy of Scripture applies no more to Bibles which are not the Latin Vulgate than does Trent's canons on the holiness of the ceremonies of the Mass apply to rites which have not been "received and approved" by the Church.

Vatican I infallibly teaches:

Quote
If anyone says that it is impossible, or not expedient, that human beings should be taught by means of divine revelation about God and the worship that should be shown him: let him be anathema.

God has revealed that the "received and approved" rites are what should be used in the worship that should be shown him. You can try and attempt to make the word "received" meaningless but just know that doing so would be as grave a sin as making the word "outside" meaningless when explaining the sacred dogma of faith "Outside the Church there is no salvation." John Salza puts it well in his excellent article "The Novus Ordo Mass and Divine Law":


Quote
For I have received of the Lord that which I also delivered unto you…” (1Cor 11:23). St. Paul says again: “For I delivered unto you first of all, which I also received” (1Cor 15:3). In these and other verses, St. Paul emphasizes that we must believe and practice only what we have “received” from Christ and the apostles which has been “delivered” unto us, and which includes the liturgical rites of the Church. This is a divinely revealed truth and a matter of Faith.
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/divinelaw.htm

To hold that the received and approved rites can be replaced by other new ones is ultimately to deny that Catholicism is an incarnational religion. Fr. Michael Muller, CSSR wrote in The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass:

Quote
Man being constituted of a body and a soul, it is just that the body, with its various capabilities, which are so many gifts of God, should come forward on the side of religion, especially as it is the nature of man to need external assistance to enable him to rise to the meditation of divine things.

Internal piety, therefore, requires to be excited and nourished by ceremonies, or certain sensible signs.

Moreover, every man ought to be religious and pious, not only so as to be conscious within himself that he worships God, but also to the extent of promoting the piety and instruction of his fellow-men, especially of those who are entrusted to his care; and this cannot be done, unless we profess by some external sign the intimate sense of religion with which we are animated.

In the ceremonial and discipline of the Church there is no part without its use. That which might seem the most trifling has its proper object, and serves in some way or other to promote habits of humility, order, patience, recollection, and religion, so as to build up the Catholic character. Hence the Fathers of the Council of Trent pronounce an anathema against all who should say that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church may be despised or omitted ac libitum by the priests, or that they may be changed [to new ones] by any pastor of the churches [whomsoever]. A most important and incalculably beneficial sentence, which saves Catholic piety from being at the mercy of weak, ignorant, though perhaps well-meaning men, who, in proportion to their weakness and ignorance, are generally vain of being reformers or modifiers of ancient things.
https://archive.org/stream/holymasssacrific00ml#page/510/mode/2up/search/received+and+approved

You have always been one of my favorite posters on this forum, Cantarella, and I hope that you do not attribute a tone to my post which I do not intend to convey. I have prayed for you before I read that you became a sedevacantist and I will continue to pray for you now. Please keep me in your prayers.




Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #803 on: April 27, 2018, 03:31:04 AM »
Why is it that you folks keep resorting to circular arguments?  It's not POSSIBLE for a Pope to promulgate a Rite of Mass to the Universal Church (or just to the Latin Rite Church) that is not holy and pleasing to God.

You guys are constantly guilty of begging the question.

You often formulate your argument as ...

"If the Pope were to teach grave/substantial error to the Church ..." then draw conclusions.

We do NOT GRANT YOUR PREMISE.  Get it?
More ladisms. Here Lad declares the pope is incapable of doing what the pope actually did, he then falsely accuses those of us who accept this reality for what it is, namely, reality, of being guilty of resorting to circular arguments.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #804 on: April 27, 2018, 03:37:59 AM »
Again, this is nothing more than the Disciplinary Infallibility of the Church ... which is held to be theologically certain (aka not optional and gravely sinful to reject) by all theologians.  And yet you openly question it here.

Demonstrate please that it's possible for a Pope to promulgate a harmful Rite of Mass by citing one example of this prior to Vatican II.

If you reject this infallibility of the Church, then it is you indeed who are in serious need of prayers.
This NO ladism has already been exposed and you've already been corrected on this. For convenience.....


I had to look this ladism up -  just as I thought, not only is such a thing ["Disciplinary Infallibility"]*not* "held by all theologians" at all, it was never even discussed by any of them. This means Disciplinary infallibility is a new term and like all things NO, has multiple, novel meanings.  It did not even exist prior to 19th/20th century. "Disciplinary infallibility" is another NO innovation, a product of the unanimous vote of NO authors that poor Lad is promoting again as if it is something traditionally Catholic.


From the CE:
"What connexion is there between the discipline of the Church and her infallibility? Is there a certain disciplinary infallibility?

It does not appear that the question was ever discussed in the past by theologians unless apropos of the canonization of saints and the approbation of religious orders. It has, however, found a place in all recent [NO] treatises on the Church.

The authors of these treatises decide unanimously in favor of a negative and indirect rather than a positive and direct infallibility blah blah blah..."