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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 205318 times)

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Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #795 on: April 25, 2018, 08:07:46 PM »
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  • Pathetic, SeanJohnnson.

    Drew is objectively guilty of calumny.  He has accused me of embracing the Protestant heresy that the Magisterium is not revealed truth, and then has persisted in this calumny after I demonstrated to him that I did no such thing.  His accusation was based on his ignorance of the English language.  I corrected him with with a citation from dictionary.com which showed my use of the term as definition #1, and his definition #2.  Yet even after that he persists in making this accusation, that I have embraced and promoted this heresy.


    Ladislaus posted:

    Quote
    « Reply #293 on: March 21, 2018, 08:17:44 AM »

    Drew, your fight is against St. Thomas and all Catholic theologians, not with me.

    I'm not even going to bother with your last post.  You can't seem to understand concepts as being formally distinct from one another.  You act stunned when I wrote that the Magisterium is not part of God's Revelation.  Magisterium is in fact formally distinct from Revelation.  In Revelation, God reveals His truth to us.  With Magisterium, the Church teaches and interprets and explains said truth.  It is not the Church's teaching authority which REVEALS the truth.  In fact, Vatican I clearly explained that papal Magisterium (in the context of infallibility) is to given to reveal new truth but merely to explain and protect it.  If you cannot understand how these are different, then I just can't help you.  Then your post goes downhill from there.

    You made the claim that "the Magisterium is not part of God's revelation. Magisterium is in fact formally distinct from Revelation" after you read in the Catholic encyclopedia that the Magisterium was "extrinsic" to divine revelation.  You said it not once but several times.  After this unthinking blunder was corrected you pretended to be making an esoteric distinction between the "content of revelation" and the "act of revelation."  Unfortunately for your argument, the Magisterium is just as much a part of the "act of revelation" as it is a part of the "content of revelation."

    The whole matter would have been dropped but for your arrogant attempt to lie your way out of a huge error.  Call it "calumny" if you like and I will keep re-posting your own words for the benefit of anyone thinking you know what you are talking about.


    Drew


    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #796 on: April 25, 2018, 08:25:50 PM »
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  • Bellarmine clearly specifies the two most important elements involved in a Pontiff and he himself mentions an existing distinction between the "matter" (person) and the "form" (Divine Assistance) of the pontificate:

    Cantarella,

    Sedeprivationism concerns the office itself, not the person.  It postulates that the a person (the pope) can materially possess the office but not possess the jurisdiction (which is conferred upon the pope directly by God) of the office. It separates the form and the matter of the office itself which would cause a substantial change in the office which God has revealed will exist and be perpetually occupied until the consummation of the world. This divine revelation has been formally defined by the Magisterium and is therefore a Dogma, a formal object of divine and Catholic faith.

    Drew


    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #797 on: April 26, 2018, 02:29:32 AM »
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  • Thank you for your reply and explanation.
    The resistance position is clear. It has always been clear.
    The last thing we need is Fr. Kramer couching his sedevacantism in legalistic arguments that no one cares about.
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #798 on: April 26, 2018, 03:37:03 AM »
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  • I welcome Fr. Paul's (Don Paolo's) view, and I hope he continues to post here at CathInfo.

    We need to make informed decisions. Note, he is not saying that the Seat is empty as it is still occupied by Pope Benedict.
    Thus, he is not a sedevacantist.

    May God grant him many years.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #799 on: April 26, 2018, 12:41:30 PM »
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  • Ladislaus, are you dumb or just maliciously twisting what your opponents say?
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #800 on: April 26, 2018, 02:50:22 PM »
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  • Deleted (already addressed in this thread).
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #801 on: April 26, 2018, 06:10:36 PM »
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  • No other papal claimant in history has ever manifested such inexcusable pertinacity in explicit heresy as Jorge "Francis" Bergoglio; who not only professes heretical doctrines like the conciliar popes have done, but explicitly, unequivocally, and adamantly, not merely contradicts, but outright rejects dogma. This point will be explained at length in vol. 2 of my book. As Bellarmine, Ballerini, and Cappellari (Gregory XVI), explain, such a one would fall from office, and manifest by his obstinate heresy, that he had (in Ballerini's words) "in some manner abdicated" the supreme pontificate. This doctrine of tacit abdication was incorporated into the 1917 Code of Canon Law, and remains essentially unchanged in the 1983 Code. Such loss of office takes place ipso facto, i.e. automatically; ipso jure, i.e. by operation of the law itself; and therefore, sine ulla declaratione, without any judgment pronounced by competent authority -- as set forth in canon 188 n. 4.

    Canon 188.4 can only be applied analogically to the case of a heretic pope.  For a more authoritative explanation of the loss of papal office for heresy, I recommend an article by Fr. Girlanda, the former rector of the Gregorian University, who holds a Ph.D in canon law, which he taught for at various faculties of the Gregorian for four decades.  

    The article titled, which is title "The Vacancy of the Roman See", appeared in Civilta Cattolica in 2013, and was discussed by Roberto de Mattie at this years' Catholic Family News conference.  Professor de Mattie noted that Fr. Ghirlanda is neither a traditionalist nor a progressive, but is simply a scholar who had gathered and studied the past thousand years of canonical tradition concerning the loss of papal office. In the article, Fr. Ghirlanda explains that there are four ways the papal see can become vacant. He writes: 
     
    Fr. Ghirlanda: “The vacancy of the Roman See occurs in case of the cessation of the office on the part of the Roman Pontiff, which happens for four reasons: 1) Death, 2) Sure and perpetual insanity or complete mental infirmity; 3) Notorious apostasy, heresy, schism; 4) Resignation.  In the first case, the Apostolic See is vacant from the moment of death of the Roman Pontiff; in the second and in the third from the moment of the declaration on the part of the cardinals; in the fourth from the moment of the renunciation."
     
    Concerning numbers 2 and 3, he goes on to explain that because 'the first see is judged by no one', the Cardinals would not depose the Pope, but would only declare the fact of his heresy or insanity, at which time the see would become vacant.
     
    Fr. Ghirlanda: “There is the case, admitted by doctrine, of notorious apostasy, heresy and schism, into which the Roman Pontiff could fall, but only when teaching as a “private doctor,” who does not demand the assent of the faithful ... However, in such cases, because ‘the first see is judged by no one’ (Canon 1404) no one could depose the Roman Pontiff, but only a declaration of the fact would be had, which would have to be done by the Cardinals, at least of those present in Rome. Such an eventuality, however, although foreseen in doctrine, is held to be totally unlikely (…) The certainty and the perpetuity of madness, like the totality of insanity, must be ascertained through accurate medical reports. The cessation from the primatial office would only be declared by the Cardinals, at least those present in Rome; therefore also in this case there would be no deposition.”
     
    What Fr. Ghirlanda is saying is that if a pope falls into heresy or insanity, the Church does not remove him from office by deposing him.  Instead, the Cardinals ascertain and declare the fact of heresy or insanity, at which time the office becomes vacant ipso facto.  The loss of office does not occur until the Cardinals investigate and declare the fact.
     
    It is also worth noting that an ipso facto deprivation differs from an ipso facto excommunication, since the latter does not require human judgment or a declaration, whereas the former does.  Cardinal Tommaso de Vio explains this distinction, and ovserves that it is the canonists.
     
    “The power of jurisdiction is by man’s appointment: both giving it and taking it away belong to human judgment. I said ‘much less’ because more is required to incur deprivation ipso facto than to incur excommunication, since incurring the censure does not require a declaration, whereas incurring deprivation does, according to the canonists.”
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #802 on: April 26, 2018, 07:35:21 PM »
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  • The Tridentine Catechism makes mention of the existence of "many solemn rites and ceremonies" used in the Sacrifice of the Mass, none of which should be deemed useless or superfluous.

    If Paul VI was indeed Pope, you are not allowed to condemn his Novus Ordo rite without falling into Anathema.
    Cantarella, by holding that everything concerning the government of the liturgy is wholly a matter of mere Church discipline and by holding that the pope has the authority to create new rites for use in the solemn administration of the sacraments, you yourself are making the many "solemn rites and ceremonies" that Trent is referring to superfluous. If you think that the traditional rites can be omitted by pastors without sin and replaced by new ones then you obviously do not think that they are of great value. Drew, by expressing his belief that the received (traditional) and approved rites are necessary attributes of the Catholic faith without which the faith cannot be known or communicated to others, is showing that he understands the solemn rites to be the exact opposite of superfluous. By claiming that the pope has the authority to create a new rite of Mass you are essentially saying that if Pius XII (or whoever you consider the last true pope to have been) had created the Novus Ordo, then you would have been bound in consistency with your belief to accept the new rite as containing nothing that is not holy. You have left yourself no standard by which to judge otherwise. It is no surprise that many sedevacantists end up becoming practitioners of the Novus Ordo religion. You share the same error as the "conservatives."

    To say that Trent's canons on the holiness of the ceremonies of the Mass apply to new rites is like saying that Trent's decree on the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture applies to the New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition of the Bible. Trent's decree on the inerrancy of Scripture applies no more to Bibles which are not the Latin Vulgate than does Trent's canons on the holiness of the ceremonies of the Mass apply to rites which have not been "received and approved" by the Church.

    Vatican I infallibly teaches:

    Quote
    If anyone says that it is impossible, or not expedient, that human beings should be taught by means of divine revelation about God and the worship that should be shown him: let him be anathema.

    God has revealed that the "received and approved" rites are what should be used in the worship that should be shown him. You can try and attempt to make the word "received" meaningless but just know that doing so would be as grave a sin as making the word "outside" meaningless when explaining the sacred dogma of faith "Outside the Church there is no salvation." John Salza puts it well in his excellent article "The Novus Ordo Mass and Divine Law":


    Quote
    For I have received of the Lord that which I also delivered unto you…” (1Cor 11:23). St. Paul says again: “For I delivered unto you first of all, which I also received” (1Cor 15:3). In these and other verses, St. Paul emphasizes that we must believe and practice only what we have “received” from Christ and the apostles which has been “delivered” unto us, and which includes the liturgical rites of the Church. This is a divinely revealed truth and a matter of Faith.
    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/divinelaw.htm

    To hold that the received and approved rites can be replaced by other new ones is ultimately to deny that Catholicism is an incarnational religion. Fr. Michael Muller, CSSR wrote in The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass:

    Quote
    Man being constituted of a body and a soul, it is just that the body, with its various capabilities, which are so many gifts of God, should come forward on the side of religion, especially as it is the nature of man to need external assistance to enable him to rise to the meditation of divine things.

    Internal piety, therefore, requires to be excited and nourished by ceremonies, or certain sensible signs.

    Moreover, every man ought to be religious and pious, not only so as to be conscious within himself that he worships God, but also to the extent of promoting the piety and instruction of his fellow-men, especially of those who are entrusted to his care; and this cannot be done, unless we profess by some external sign the intimate sense of religion with which we are animated.

    In the ceremonial and discipline of the Church there is no part without its use. That which might seem the most trifling has its proper object, and serves in some way or other to promote habits of humility, order, patience, recollection, and religion, so as to build up the Catholic character. Hence the Fathers of the Council of Trent pronounce an anathema against all who should say that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church may be despised or omitted ac libitum by the priests, or that they may be changed [to new ones] by any pastor of the churches [whomsoever]. A most important and incalculably beneficial sentence, which saves Catholic piety from being at the mercy of weak, ignorant, though perhaps well-meaning men, who, in proportion to their weakness and ignorance, are generally vain of being reformers or modifiers of ancient things.
    https://archive.org/stream/holymasssacrific00ml#page/510/mode/2up/search/received+and+approved

    You have always been one of my favorite posters on this forum, Cantarella, and I hope that you do not attribute a tone to my post which I do not intend to convey. I have prayed for you before I read that you became a sedevacantist and I will continue to pray for you now. Please keep me in your prayers.



    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #803 on: April 27, 2018, 03:31:04 AM »
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  • Why is it that you folks keep resorting to circular arguments?  It's not POSSIBLE for a Pope to promulgate a Rite of Mass to the Universal Church (or just to the Latin Rite Church) that is not holy and pleasing to God.

    You guys are constantly guilty of begging the question.

    You often formulate your argument as ...

    "If the Pope were to teach grave/substantial error to the Church ..." then draw conclusions.

    We do NOT GRANT YOUR PREMISE.  Get it?
    More ladisms. Here Lad declares the pope is incapable of doing what the pope actually did, he then falsely accuses those of us who accept this reality for what it is, namely, reality, of being guilty of resorting to circular arguments.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #804 on: April 27, 2018, 03:37:59 AM »
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  • Again, this is nothing more than the Disciplinary Infallibility of the Church ... which is held to be theologically certain (aka not optional and gravely sinful to reject) by all theologians.  And yet you openly question it here.

    Demonstrate please that it's possible for a Pope to promulgate a harmful Rite of Mass by citing one example of this prior to Vatican II.

    If you reject this infallibility of the Church, then it is you indeed who are in serious need of prayers.
    This NO ladism has already been exposed and you've already been corrected on this. For convenience.....


    I had to look this ladism up -  just as I thought, not only is such a thing ["Disciplinary Infallibility"]*not* "held by all theologians" at all, it was never even discussed by any of them. This means Disciplinary infallibility is a new term and like all things NO, has multiple, novel meanings.  It did not even exist prior to 19th/20th century. "Disciplinary infallibility" is another NO innovation, a product of the unanimous vote of NO authors that poor Lad is promoting again as if it is something traditionally Catholic.


    From the CE:
    "What connexion is there between the discipline of the Church and her infallibility? Is there a certain disciplinary infallibility?

    It does not appear that the question was ever discussed in the past by theologians unless apropos of the canonization of saints and the approbation of religious orders. It has, however, found a place in all recent [NO] treatises on the Church.

    The authors of these treatises decide unanimously in favor of a negative and indirect rather than a positive and direct infallibility blah blah blah..."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #805 on: April 27, 2018, 06:37:21 AM »
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  • This NO ladism has already been exposed and you've already been corrected on this. For convenience.....


    I had to look this ladism up -  just as I thought, not only is such a thing ["Disciplinary Infallibility"]*not* "held by all theologians" at all, it was never even discussed by any of them. This means Disciplinary infallibility is a new term and like all things NO, has multiple, novel meanings.  It did not even exist prior to 19th/20th century. "Disciplinary infallibility" is another NO innovation, a product of the unanimous vote of NO authors that poor Lad is promoting again as if it is something traditionally Catholic.


    From the CE:
    "What connexion is there between the discipline of the Church and her infallibility? Is there a certain disciplinary infallibility?

    It does not appear that the question was ever discussed in the past by theologians unless apropos of the canonization of saints and the approbation of religious orders. It has, however, found a place in all recent [NO] treatises on the Church.

    The authors of these treatises decide unanimously in favor of a negative and indirect rather than a positive and direct infallibility blah blah blah..."
    Given the Catholic Encyclopedia was written/compiled in 1909 "recent treatises" can not mean "NO" (Novus Ordo).  

    The Catholic Encyclopedia also states:

    From the disciplinary infallibility of the Church, correctly understood as an in indirect consequence of her doctrinal infallibility, it follows that she cannot be rightly accused of introducing into her discipline anything opposed to the Divine Law.

    The Council of Trent also states (liturgy = discipline):

    "If anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the Catholic Church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathema."
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #806 on: April 27, 2018, 07:18:56 AM »
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  • Given the Catholic Encyclopedia was written/compiled in 1909 "recent treatises" can not mean "NO" (Novus Ordo).  
    Ladism: "Again, this is nothing more than the Disciplinary Infallibility of the Church ... which is held to be theologically certain by all theologians."

    CE: It does not appear that the question was ever discussed in the past by theologians...

    CE: It has, however, found a place in all recent treatises on the Church.

    Recent treaties = not of tradition =  began with 19th / 20th century theologians speculations, which is the only place such an idea is found - per the CE. Likely it is also found among V2 docuмents or other false teachings of the NO.

    The Church's Disciplines, depending on one's opinion of what that even is, the Church changes with cultures and over time - that is just a fact. Anything that is subject to change, is subject to corruption, not infallibility, therefore, there is no divine guarantee of safety regarding the Church's disciplines.

    This particular Ladism attempts to extend the Church's infallibility to the general discipline of the Church as if that false idea actually is teaching of the Church. But this is wrong. There is no teaching of the Church agreeing with him on this.

    As the CE states, prior to  V1 there was no such thing even discussed at all. Per the CE, this idea is a recent, aka not traditional idea that ladism raises to the level of "theologically certain" because he wrongfully states that "all theologians" held it, but by default, being a recent idea it is not traditional.

    All this ladism is, is a false idea that NOers wrongly believe to be a teaching of the Church - which if it actually is a Church teaching, then we are all wrong for not being NO and all trads are at least stupid for being trads in the first place.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #807 on: April 27, 2018, 07:23:10 AM »
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  • Ladism: "Again, this is nothing more than the Disciplinary Infallibility of the Church ... which is held to be theologically certain by all theologians."

    CE: It does not appear that the question was ever discussed in the past by theologians...

    CE: It has, however, found a place in all recent treatises on the Church.

    Recent treaties = not of tradition =  began with 19th / 20th century theologians speculations, which is the only place such an idea is found - per the CE. Likely it is also found among V2 docuмents or other false teachings of the NO.

    The Church's Disciplines, depending on one's opinion of what that even is, the Church changes with cultures and over time - that is just a fact. Anything that is subject to change, is subject to corruption, not infallibility, therefore, there is no divine guarantee of safety regarding the Church's disciplines.

    This particular Ladism attempts to extend the Church's infallibility to the general discipline of the Church as if that false idea actually is teaching of the Church. But this is wrong. There is no teaching of the Church agreeing with him on this.

    As the CE states, prior to  V1 there was no such thing even discussed at all. Per the CE, this idea is a recent, aka not traditional idea that ladism raises to the level of "theologically certain" because he wrongfully states that "all theologians" held it, but by default, being a recent idea it is not traditional.

    All this ladism is, is a false idea that NOers wrongly believe to be a teaching of the Church - which if it actually is a Church teaching, then we are all wrong for not being NO and all trads are at least stupid for being trads in the first place.
    Meanwhile, the Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who speaks negatively of the Church's liturgy (aka discipline).  This is what all trads do regarding the Novus Ordo.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #808 on: April 27, 2018, 07:38:26 AM »
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  • Meanwhile, the Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who speaks negatively of the Church's liturgy (aka discipline).  This is what all trads do regarding the Novus Ordo.
    The NO liturgy is not the Church's liturgy and Trent itself would have condemned it had it been perpetrated before Trent.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #809 on: April 27, 2018, 07:43:00 AM »
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  • Disciplinary infallibility is no "Ladism", idiot.

    Here are the parts of CE that you left out (since you cite CE as an authority):

    All this article was saying is that disciplinary infallibility is a negative and indirect infallibility ... to the extent that discipline has doctrinal implications.
    It is ladism. We see that now, your promoting negative infallibility - a Nadoism.

    You be the guy who just sticks with your own isms from now on and I'll be the guy who keeps calling you out.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse