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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 204994 times)

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Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #720 on: April 20, 2018, 06:04:53 PM »
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  • Cantarella's contradiction #904:

    Why was Paul VI not the pope?
    Her Answer:  I suspect it because of the Magisterial contradiction in the setting of an Ecunemical Council. Mainly in the docuмents Lumen Gentium, Nostra Aetate; and Dignitatis Humanae.


    So, her reason for Paul VI not being the pope is because V2 contradicts Tradition.


    Why is the new mass wrong?
    Her Answer: The Holy See alone has the right to enact the form of the Sacred Liturgy, as well as to approve the liturgical books.  Because the Holy See is vacant (on account of an impostor acting as "Sovereign Pontiff") the Novus Ordo Mass IS NOT A RITE EITHER PROMULGATED OR USED BY THE CHURCH.


    So, her reason for Paul VI's mass being wrong is because V2 contradicts Tradition.  For if V2 did NOT contradict Tradition, then the pope would have authority to create the new mass.


    So where is the contradiction?
    1.  She has said repeatedly, ad nauseum, that an ecuмenical council is infallible.  Yet when V2 teaches something against Tradition, she says it's no longer infallible, it's an error and is a "proof" that Paul VI wasn't pope.  Circular logic.

    2.  She has said repeatedly, ad nauseum, that a pope's personal faith "cannot fail".  Yet when Paul VI "taught" error at V2 which was against Tradition, she says his faith didn't fail - it's just "proof" he wasn't pope.  Again, Circular logic.

    On the one hand, she says it's a "dogma" that an ecuмenical council is infallible.  On the other hand, she says it's a "dogma" that the pope's personal faith "cannot fail".  One of them (and most likely both) are wrong; obviously, they aren't dogmas.  But, the V2 situation has shown her views to be contradictory.  Either one of the above MUST BE FALSE (and probably both.)  Which one is wrong, Cantarella?

    The only answer you can make is to say that Paul VI was NEVER pope to begin with, which would be ANOTHER CONTRADICTION of your above, first statement.  Of course, that begs the question of "why wasn't he the pope?".  And since you don't have objective, public evidence like a V2 to point to, your reasons would be highly subjective and very uncertain.

    Thus, the foundation of sedevacantism is shown to be quite shaky...

    Pax,

    Very good post. I hope you did not get vertigo while writing it. The position of sedevacantis/sedeprivationism is full of brainless contradictions that you have here demonstrated only a few. This exchange is analogous to our Lord's parable of the seed falling on different ground. The human mind cannot live with self-evident contradictions if the heart is "good and perfect," but what happens is that the "heart grows gross" and suffocates the conscience in the rocky ground. The replies to your posts have grown more venomous and unreasonable with each reply.

    When will Cantarella address these contradictions? Probably never. No more likely than she will ever address the fact that the church she belongs to is not and cannot be the Catholic Church is a evident fact.

    Drew


    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #721 on: April 20, 2018, 06:54:48 PM »
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  • It is was as simple as this then we were still be hearing Mass in Aramaic and Hebrew. Evidently, there must be an Authority in charge to make the necessary modifications in all liturgical matters, as long as the substance of the Sacrament remains intact. This authority is the Sovereign Pontiff alone. St. Peter himself began to offer the Mass in the Greek language modifying it from what had been "received" in the Last Supper.

    As the 1917 Code of Canon Law states and Pope Pius XII confirms it, it is the Holy See alone which has the right to enact the form of the Sacred Liturgy, as well as to approve the liturgical books.  The ecclesiastical docuмents that deal with Divine worship, this is, the prayers, ceremonies, and rites of the Holy Mass belong to the realm of discipline; not dogma.


    Cantarella,

    You are invincible to facts so, in the end, this post is probably not for you.  I am responding to your claim that, "The Holy Mass belong(s) to the realm of discipline; not dogma." This post is lengthy but important. Our immemorial ecclesiastical traditions, the most important of which is the "received and approved" Roman rite of Mass, are not and cannot be a matter of mere discipline open to the free and independent will of any legislator.  It is by these immemorial ecclesiastical traditions only by which the faith can be known and communicated to others. They therefore are necessary attributes of the faith. This is essential to understand because there is no defending the faith without knowing and understanding this fact.  After understanding that Dogma is the proximate rule of faith, this truth necessarily follows. Remember, the Iconoclasts were called "heretics" because they destroyed the images of our faith. The immemorial ecclesiastical traditions are like images and those who would destroy them, or in any way set them aside, are enemies of the faith willy nilly. Upon these two essential principles stand or falls the success of defending the Catholic faith.

    Let's begin with a quote that addresses immemorial ecclesiastical traditions in general.

    Quote
    They (the Modernists) exercise all their ingenuity in an effort to weaken the force and falsify the character of Tradition, so as to rob it of all its weight and authority.  But for Catholics nothing will remove the authority of the second Council of Nicea, where it condemns those “who dare, after the impious fashion of heretics, to deride the ecclesiastical traditions, to invent novelties of some kind.... or endeavor by malice or craft to overthrow any one of the legitimate traditions of the Catholic Church”; nor that of the declaration of the fourth Council of Constantinople: “We therefore profess to preserve and guard the rules bequeathed to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the Holy and most illustrious Apostles, by the orthodox Councils, both general and local, and by every one of those divine interpreters, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.” Wherefore the Roman Pontiffs, Pius IV and Pius IX, ordered the insertion in the profession of faith of the following declaration: “I most firmly admit and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and other observances and constitutions of the Church”
    St. Pius X, Pascenedi

    Msgr. Klaus Gamber’s quote cited before is worth repeating.  He said:

    Quote
    "However, the term disciplina in no way applies to the liturgical rite of the Mass, particularly in light of the fact that the popes have repeatedly observed that the rite is founded on apostolic tradition (several popes are then quoted in the footnote). For this reason alone, the rite cannot fall into the category of 'discipline and rule of the Church.' To this we can add that there is not a single docuмent, including the Codex Iuris Canonici, in which there is a specific statement that the pope, in his function as the supreme pastor of the Church, has the authority to abolish the traditional rite. In fact, nowhere is it mentioned that the pope has the authority to change even a single local liturgical tradition. The fact that there is no mention of such authority strengthens our case considerably.
     
     "There are clearly defined limits to the plena et suprema potestas (full and highest powers) of the pope. For example, there is no question that, even in matters of dogma, he still has to follow the tradition of the universal Church-that is, as St. Vincent of Lerins says, what has been believed (quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab ominibus). In fact, there are several authors who state quite explicitly that it is clearly outside the pope's scope of authority to abolish the traditional rite."
    Msgr. Klaus Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy

    The important points of fact that can be drawn from Msgr. Gamber are:

    1) That “the term disciplina in no way applies to the liturgical rite of the Mass.”
    2) That “there is not a single docuмent, including the Codex Iuris Canonici, in which there is a specific statement that the pope, in his function as supreme pastor of the Church, has the authority to abolish the traditional liturgical rite.
    3) That every papal docuмent on the immemorial Roman canon says it is an “Apostolic tradition” and thus no one has the authority to change theological principals with regard to the immemorial Roman canon because Divine and Apostolic tradition is immutable.
    4) Canon law restricted (C.1257 in the old code and C. 838 in the new) limits the authority of the Apostolic See to “supervision,” Msgr. Gamber saying that, “It most certainly is not the function of the Holy See to introduce Church reforms. The first duty of the pope is to act as primary bishop (episcopus = supervisor), to watch over the traditions of the Church.”
    5) Msgr. Gamber’s emphasis that, "Liturgy and faith are interdependent. That is why a new rite was created, a rite that in many ways reflects the bias of the new (modernist) theology”.
    6) Msgr. Gamber includes all the liturgical changes of Msgr. Bugnini when he concludes, “So many of the liturgical innovations introduced … beginning with the decree of February 9, 1951 during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII reforming the Easter Week Liturgy; then the “new” Codex of Rubrics of July 25, 1960, long since changed again; then the many small changes made during the following years; and now the “reform” of the Ordo Missae of April 6, 1969 have proved utterly useless and indeed detrimental to the spiritual welfare of the Church.”


    Further proof that the immemorial Roman Rite, our “received and approved” rite, is not a matter of simple discipline can be found in Fr. Paul Kramer’s book, The ѕυιcιdє of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy. This has already been posted but worth reading again:

    Quote
    The Tridentine Profession of Faith of Pope Pius IV, Iniunctum Nobis, prescribes adherence to the “received and approved rites of the Catholic Church used in the solemn administration of the sacraments.” The ‘received and approved rites’ are the rites established by custom, and hence the Council of Trent refers to them as the “received and approved rites of the Catholic Church customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments (Sess. VII, can XIII). Adherence to the customary rites received and approved by the Church is an infallible defined doctrine: The Council of Florence defined that “priests…. must confect the body of the Lord, each one according to the custom of his Church” (Decretum pro Graecis), and therefore the Council of Trent solemnly condemned as heresy the proposition that “ the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments may be changed into other new rites by any ecclesiastical pastor whosoever.”
    Fr. Paul Kramer, The ѕυιcιdє of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy

    Pope Pius XII, in Mediator Dei, said regarding the error of liturgist

    Quote
    "They wander entirely away from the true and full notion and understanding of the Sacred Liturgy, who consider it only as an external part of divine worship, and presented to the senses; or as a kind of apparatus of ceremonial properties; and they no less err who think of it as a mere compendium of laws and precepts, by which the ecclesiastical Hierarchy bids the sacred rites to be arranged and ordered."
    Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei
     
    Pope Benedict XVI, said in his book, Spirit of the Liturgy:

    Quote
    The Liturgy cannot be compared to a piece of equipment, something made, but rather to a plant, something organic that grows and whose laws of growth determine the possibilities of further development. In the West there has been, of course, another factor involved. This was the Papal authority, the Pope took ever more clearly the responsibility upon himself for the liturgical legislation, and so doing foresaw in a juridical authority for the forth setting of the liturgical development. The stronger the papal primacy was exercised, the more the question arose, just what the limits of this authority were, which of course, no-one had ever before thought about. After the Second Vatican Council, the impression has been made that the Pope, as far as the Liturgy goes, can actually do everything he wishes to do, certainly when he was acting with the mandate of an Ecuмenical Council. Finally, the idea that the Liturgy is a predetermined ''given'', the fact that nobody can simply do what he wishes with her, disappeared out of the public conscience of the Western [Church]. In fact, the First Vatican Council did not in any way define that the Pope was an absolute monarch! Au contraire, the first Vatican Council sketched his role as that of a guarantee for the obedience to the Revealed Word. The papal authority is limited by the Holy Tradition of the Faith, and that regards also the Liturgy. The Liturgy is no ''creation'' of the authorities. Even the Pope can be nothing other than a humble servant of the Liturgy's legitimate development and of her everlasting integrity and identity. 
    Pope Benedict XVI, Spirit of the Liturgy

    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger said:

    Quote
    “What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy, the fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication started. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced -- as if in a technical production -- by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. Gamber, with the vigilance of a true visionary and with the fearlessness of a true witness, opposed this falsification and tirelessly taught us the living fullness of a true liturgy, thanks to his incredibly rich knowledge of the sources. As a man who knew and who loved history, he showed us the multiple forms of the evolution and of the path of the liturgy; as a man who saw history from the inside, he saw in this development and in the fruit of this development the intangible reflection of the eternal liturgy, which is not the object of our action, but which may marvelously continue to blossom and to ripen, if we join its mystery intimately.”
     Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, from his introduction in the French edition of Monsignor Klaus Gamber’s book, The Reform of the Roman Rite
     
    Pope Pius XI refers to the "canon of faith" (i.e.: dogmas are "canons of faith") that Pope Celestine I "proposed and expressed" regarding the "formulas of the liturgy." Suffice to say, if liturgical prayer determines "belief" than prayer that is "received and approved" must be as equally as true as the doctrine that it determines.

    Quote
    Once one realizes that liturgical worship is not and could never be a matter of mere discipline it make perfect sense.  St. Prosper of Aquitaine’s maxim, “lex supplicandi legem statuat credenda; let the law of prayer determine the law of belief,” was first used in the context of his apology for the doctrine of grace when he said, “let our tradition of prayer confirm this particular belief.”  It has been since widely cited in papal docuмents.
    There is a primacy of worship over belief.  “Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment.” Matt. 22: 37-38.  God is the author of Divine worship. 
     “And the liturgy is an undoubtedly sacred thing; for, through it we are brought to God and are joined with Him; we bear witness to our faith, and we are obligated to it by a most serious duty because of the benefits and helps received, of which we are always in need.  Hence a kind of intimate relationship between dogma and sacred liturgy, and likewise between Christian worship and the sanctification of the people. Therefore, Celestine I proposed and expressed a canon of faith in the formulas of the Liturgy: ‘Let the law of supplication establish the law of believing.  For when the leaders of holy peoples administer legislation enjoined upon themselves they plead the course of the human race before divine Clemency, and they beg and pray while the entire Church sighs with them.’
    Pope Pius XI, Divini cultus

    Regarding the canon that the law of prayer determines the law of belief, we have the distinguished linguist and author of Banished Heart, Geoffrey Hull, said regarding the meaning of the word “orthodoxy”:

    Quote
    “Reflective of the primacy of prayer over understanding is the semantic development of the term ‘orthodoxy’ in the Christian context.  The Classical Greek compound noun orthodoxia originally signified ‘right opinion’.  However, since the second component doxa had also the secondary meanings of ‘glory’ and ‘praise’, the word came, in the usage of Greek speaking Christians, to mean ‘right worship.’  Hence the Old Slavonic loan-translation pravoslavie (‘orthdoxy’, but literally ‘right praise’) adapted the secondary (Christian) rather than the primary (classical) meaning of orthodoxia”.
    Geoffrey Hull, Banished Heart

    It used to be that routinely get this ignorant sap that liturgy was just a matter of discipline in the 60s and 70s. With the great expansion of liturgical studies especially since 1990 this claim that the liturgy is a matter of mere discipline is still held by Novus Ordites and those formed by the SSPX who have a low regard for Dogma. It is an unfortunate fact that the person really responsible for this mess is none other than Pope Pius XII.  In his encyclical Mediator Dei, which in most respects is an excellent encyclical, took the liberty of inverting this "canon of faith" by Pope Celestine I and said, 'Let the law of belief determine the law of prayer.' He then set up the Liturgical Commission and placed Rev. Anabale Bugnini in charge with license to remake the law of prayer.  Unfortunately for all the faithful, this man Bugnini was a certain Modernist and probable Mason and thus, it is his belief that formulated the Novus Ordo prayers and liturgical praxis.

    The "received and approved" rites, including the immemorial Roman rite of Mass, is a canon of faith in the Tridentine Profession of Faith that must be believed with "divine and Catholic faith."  No disciplinary subject, that are in the category of authority/obedience, is neither true nor false and can never be that object of Dogma.

    But then Cantarella, What is Dogma to you?

    Drew 



    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #722 on: April 20, 2018, 07:16:36 PM »
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  • Pax Vobis: 
    Quote
    Once this thread reaches 100 pages, I'm out. 

    Thanks, PV, but it won't matter much.  Drew could push it over 100 pages all by himself.  He, perhaps with the help of Cantarella, might well  have it over 150 pages by the end of April. :o

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #723 on: April 20, 2018, 07:33:32 PM »
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  • If it gets to 150, i'll be back to push it to 200!  Drew and Cantarella both have good posts, it's just that conversations get sidetracked.  If there could be one on one conversations, more would get accomplished.  The "peanut gallery" is too often indulged instead of ignored...

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #724 on: April 21, 2018, 04:55:23 AM »
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  • Mons. Des Lauriers has much more credentials that Fr. Hesse.
    Dominican Theologian who became Sedevacantist - Novus Ordo Watch

    :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #725 on: April 21, 2018, 06:04:33 AM »
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  • Liturgical rites being of a disciplinary nature; not dogmatic, is easily proved by the fact that they are not universal, which you yourself have mentioned several times is a crucial element of "Dogma".

    A "dogmatic definition" automatically means that it is UNIVERSALLY applicable to all Catholics of every rite, universally binding on all Catholics, and FORMALLY revealed by God as dogma.

    That is how we can tell that Quo Primum for example, is a disciplinary decree, because it is only applicable to the Western Rite church and it had absolutely no binding power on the Eastern Rite churches.

    Cantarella,


    What is dogmatized is the principle that every Catholic must worship according to their "received and approved" rites. You typically being with a personal notion and then inductively work toward some willful resolution, while I try to begin from dogma, that is, divinely revealed truth, and look for certain deductive conclusion that are necessarily true. If any conclusion leads to an evident conflict with dogma, I reject it. You on the other hand are indifferent to the fact that your inductive "musings" lead to conclusions that overturn dogma. It does not matter to you at all that your "musings" have brought you into a church that has no pope, no magisterium, no dogma, no rule of faith, nothing and, what is worse, no intent or means of every correcting this defect. The church you belong to cannot be the Catholic Church because it does not have her necessary attributes and never will.

    Adherence to the "received and approved" rites is a Dogma that has been, with other Dogmas, incorporated into the Tridentine profession of faith. This divinely revealed truth is where you should begin but you won't.  You repeat again that "Quo Primum for example, is a disciplinary decree" when the subject matter is dogma, the "received and approved" rites. When the subject matter is Dogma, the decree cannot, by definition, be merely disciplinary.

    Your proposal is nonsense.  Compare and contrast the condemnation of Iconoclasm as a heresy. No individual icon is a universal anymore than a particular liturgical usage. The principle is the universal truth an attack upon the images of our faith is an attack on the faith itself. Each particular "received and approved" rite is like a perfect icon, the work of the Holy Ghost, who leads the Church to the perfect worship of God.

    There is a strong relationship between the error of Nominalism and modern philosophical and theological errors.  Your approach to this problem is nominalistic and grossly mechanistic.

    Drew

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #726 on: April 21, 2018, 06:31:21 AM »
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  • Those who are looking from the fence can realize the plain falsehood of this statement and this is just a quick example among many.

    Here is the canon in question:




    Please read what is explicitly stated. This is not a mere "supervision" function. The canon is very clear that the Holy See alone has the right to ENACT the form of the Sacred Liturgy. Enacting is not merely supervising.

    Looking at the dictionary definition of the word ENACT:

    Make (a bill or other proposal) law.

    "Make" is not the same as "supervise".

    Cantarella,

    Just a short comment on your approach to this problem.  You are not presenting an argument. You are offering yourself as an "expert" to set your opinion against the opinion of Msgr. Klaus Gamber who was generally recognized and accepted as great liturgist.

    I know of canon lawyers that you could quote who would agree with you completely. For example in 2001, John M. Huels, OSM, JCD, who at the time was a Servite priest, influential liturgical canonist, professor of canon law and vice-dean of Saint Paul University in Ottawa. His his opinion was published by the Canon Law Society of America. Your opinion is in perfect agreement with Huels.

    I do not agree with Huels but I acknowledged that he was a recognized "expert" so when I disagree with his opinions, I have to offer reasoned arguments from higher authority to canon law, or at a minimum, produce a comparatively qualified expert who disagrees.

    That's how it works.

    Drew

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #727 on: April 21, 2018, 11:06:08 AM »
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  • PV:
    Quote
    ... it's just that conversations get sidetracked.
    We all need a good laugh at least once a week. :jester:


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #728 on: April 21, 2018, 11:11:43 AM »
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  • Haha.  But the sidetracks which sidetracked the ORIGINAL sidetracks were worth exploring.  We just didn’t leave any breadcrumb trail back to Grandmas house...

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #729 on: April 21, 2018, 12:23:40 PM »
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  • PV:
    Quote
    But the sidetracks which sidetracked the ORIGINAL sidetracks were worth exploring.

    You're right.  Not to mention the sidetracks, of the sidetracks, of the sidetracks, of the sidetracks, of the sidetracks of the ORIGINAL sidetracks.  Don't forget them.!  And particularly, the matter of Fr. Jenkins having possibly dyed his hair.  That sidetracked topic alone warrants in depth analysis and discussion.  Why, it could push viewing totals well beyond 50,000, though certain CI members might collapse from exhaustion at the end of it all. ??? 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #730 on: April 21, 2018, 01:31:58 PM »
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  • Quote
    Why, it could push viewing totals well beyond 50,000
    One can dream


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #731 on: April 21, 2018, 02:57:13 PM »
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  • Fr. Hesse on Pope Honorius:

    https://youtu.be/VVVh2vdhDeQ?t=660
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #733 on: April 22, 2018, 06:25:16 AM »
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  • The fundamental error you are making here is that you forget that it is the Holy See alone; and not Mr. Drew, who gets to decide which rites are those "received and approved" by the Church to be used in both Western and Eastern churches. If Paul VI was indeed Pope, then it must be said that the Novus Ordo rite is valid, good, and also pleasing to God, because we know infallibly that the Church does not put forth "incentives to impiety" for the faithful. This is only of course, if Paul VI was a legitimate authority.

    The Church has all authority in the promulgation of liturgical rites and the administration of the sacraments, as long as the substance remains untouched. You may not like it; but it is just the way it is. Nothing in the Church gets accomplished however, without the express approval of the Sovereign Pontiff, the Pope of Rome.

    The Council of Trent stated concerning "the power of the Church as regards the dispensation of the Sacrament of the Eucharist":

    Cantarella,

    Sedevacantism/Sedeprivationism (S&S) is a mass of hopeless contradictions that end in objective heresy and schism.  These hopeless contradictions are never addressed in the arguments. What the S&S argue is that the R&R is likewise buried in hopeless contradictions that are more problematic. But this charge of the S&S is entirely grounded upon gross distortions of the Church in all her Attributes. The great majority of the posts on this thread have addressed these distorted presuppositions of the S&S, such as:

    1) The Magisterium is the rule of faith and is free to re-interpret any doctrine or dogma.
    2) The pope is infallibly infallible and fallible infallible.
    3) The Indefectibility of the Church means the pope possess a fallible infallibility in all his ordinary actions.
    4) Ecuмenical councils are infallible in everything.
    5) The pope and the bishops of the world at one specific moment of time constitute the "universal" magisterium.
    6) Every Catholic owes absolute obedience to the pope irrespective of  the virtue of Religion.
    7) Liturgy is man-made and entirely a matter of mere discipline that the pope can do whatever he pleases.

    This sample could be extended but covers the most important errors of the S&S.  This reply continues to address the nature of Liturgy.

    What you are describing as a "fundamental error" is founded upon a gross distortion of the papacy and the Magisterium. You act as if the pope possess arbitrary power to make anything a "received and approved" rite.  This is not so.  St. Pius V in Quo Primum established the historical sign of 200 years of continuous usage to indicate if a rite was a "received and approved" rite and made it clear that his decree would not suppress such rites.  Why?  The answer is that he had no authority to do so.  

    When Pope Nicholas II ordered the suppression of the Ambrosian Rite, he was opposed by the Catholics of Milan who refused his order. This order was subsequently overturned by Pope Alexander II who declared it to have been “unjust.”  Why "unjust"? Human law, even the highest form of human law imposed by the pope, has all the limitations of every human law. That is, it must be a promulgation of reason, by the proper authority, promoting the common good, and not in any way opposed to Divine or natural law. As St. Thomas has said, an ‘unjust law is not a law.’ St. Thomas lists three principal conditions which must be met for any human law to be valid: 1) It must be consistent with the virtue of Religion; that is, it must not contain anything contrary to Divine law, 2) It must be consistent with discipline; that is, it must conform to the Natural law; and 3) It must promote human welfare; that is, it must promote the good of society (Fr. Dominic Prummer, Moral Theology). These criteria, required for the validity of any human law, make the suppression of immemorial tradition impossible to legitimately effect. The pope has no authority to bind an unjust law and therefore the Catholics of Milan were completely within their rights to refuse the order of Pope Nicholas II.  And Catholics today are, like them, within our rights to refuse any of liturgical innovations that overturn immemorial custom.  This truth has furthermore been made an formal object of divine and Catholic faith at the Council of Trent, and of all the Dogmas declared at Trent, this Dogma has the added singular honor of being incorporated into the Tridentine Profession of Faith.  

    The "received and approved" rites of the Church are not the work of man but of God and learning this truth is one of the great benefits of the daily reading Dom Gueranger's Liturgical Year. This truth is presupposed throughout the work.

    None of this can be said for the Novus Ordo. It is not a "received" rite. This fact is lost on you as you try to apply the infallible canons of Trent regarding the "received and approved" rites to what even Benedict/Ratzinger described:

    Quote
    "What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication started. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced -- as if in a technical production -- by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."
    Pope Benedict XVI, introduction to the French edition of Msgr. Klaus Gamber's book

    You attribute an authority to the pope that even Benedict/Ratzinger does not accept:

    Quote
    After the Second Vatican Council, the impression has been made that the Pope, as far as the Liturgy goes, can actually do everything he wishes to do, certainly when he was acting with the mandate of an Ecuмenical Council.  Finally, the idea that the Liturgy is a predetermined ''given'', the fact that nobody can simply do what he wishes with her, disappeared out of the public conscience of the Western [Church].  In fact, the First Vatican Council did not in any way define that the Pope was an absolute monarch!  Au contraire, the first Vatican Council sketched his role as that of a guarantee for the obedience to the Revealed Word.  The papal authority is limited by the Holy Tradition of the Faith, and that regards also the Liturgy.  The Liturgy is no ''creation'' of the authorities.  Even the Pope can be nothing other than a humble servant of the Liturgy's legitimate development and of her everlasting integrity and identity.
    Pope Benedict XVI, Spirit of the Liturgy

    Lastly, Msgr. Gamber describes the Novus Ordo as a complete violation of the virtue of Religion.  A Catholic is not just permitted to disobey such an imposition, he is required to reject on the pain of sin.  

    Quote
    We are now involved in a liturgy in which God is no longer the center of our attention. Today, the eyes of the faithful are no longer focused on God’s Son having become Man hanging before us on the cross, or on the pictures of His saints, but on the human community assembled for a commemorative meal. The assembly of people is sitting there, face to face with the ‘presider,’ expecting from him, in accordance with the ‘modern’ spirit of the Church, not so much a transfer of God’s grace, but primarily some good ideas and advice on how to deal with daily life and its challenges.
    Msgr. Klaus Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy

    The pope does not possess the authority to invent worship. He does not possess the authority to injure the faith. You end-up utterly corrupting the papal authority and all Catholic morality. You turn divine worship into a man-made creation. What is universally true from the time of Cain and Able to this day is that God is always the determinator of divine worship that man must "receive".  No man-made worship is ever acceptable to God.  You only purpose in making these claims is to smear R&R Catholic so as to justify your S&S overturning of Catholic Dogma.
     
    As I said in my previous post to you, you are not offering arguments from a higher authority or even offering authorities of equal or superior standing. What you offer is you personal interpretation without any supporting evidence.  In the end you offer only yourself and your "musings" to affirm that the quotation you provided from Trent authorized the pope to produce the Novus Ordo.  You have become the very definition of hubris.

    Drew  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #734 on: April 22, 2018, 11:35:16 AM »
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  • Great summary, Drew.  By and large, personal sedevacantism (i.e. outside of a Church decision) is an extreme over-reaction to the extreme errors of heresy.  It is a human attempt to deal with spiritual chaos.  While it is psychologically and emotionally understandable, it is not catholic because it views supernatural things - the Faith, the Mass, and Divine Truth - through a natural lens.  It attempts to fix a Divine problem without following God's Divine Plan - which is to wait for the Church to act.  As has been said many times by various posters, it is proven that personal sedevacantism is fruitless, both on a practical level and from God's point of view, when the result of accepting this view leads to the final and unanswerable question:  "So we've gotten rid of the bad pope...now what?"