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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 442540 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #685 on: April 19, 2018, 11:06:29 AM »
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If Paul VI was indeed Pope, you are not allowed to condemn his Novus Ordo rite without falling into Anathema.
Retarded argument.  It's USE is already condemned by Quo Primum.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #686 on: April 19, 2018, 11:25:22 AM »
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First, Paul VI made absolutely no changes to the actual Tridentine Latin Roman Rite; he simple promulgated a new order of Mass. The Novus Ordo Mass is not an upgrade or modification to the Tridentine Mass. It is a completely brand new rite.
 Yes and no.  It started out as a modification/replacement of the old rite.  But when the sspx kept using the 1962 missal, new-rome said their new missal was just a "different usage of the same rite".  It's a new rite, based off an old one.  It's not brand new, because not everything changed.

Really, your point is irrelevant.  Quo Primum codified the mass and NO ONE is allowed to say a mass using ANY OTHER RITE under pain of sin.  Case closed. 


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Second, if Paul VI was indeed Pope, then he was just exercising his proper authority "when introducing and approving a new rite or modifying those he judged to require modification”. Historical evidence proves this fact. There are many rites out there that the Church has used and approved. Pope Pius XII clearly teaches this in Mediator Dei:
"The Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.”
I've pointed the above error out to others and I will point it out to you, to give you once chance to have integrity and accept correction.

You are quoting point #58 of Mediator Dei out of context and this is deceitful.  You are basically arguing that the pope can change the mass anytime he wants, with no limits.  THIS IS HERESY.  The mass is Christ's; it is Divine.  There are human elements, which can be changed, but the essense of the sacrifice is from God's hands, which cannot be changed EVER, even by the pope.  As Mediator Dei explains in Point#50, which is a mere 8 points before your point 58..

50. The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circuмstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized.

Again, your argument is wrong.  To argue that the pope can change the mass essentially, is to argue that the Church is not of Divine origin.



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If Paul VI was indeed Pope, he could promulgate a new Latin rite given that no Pope has an authority higher than another Pope.

And if you think otherwise, that is an indication of a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of Papal authority.
Paul VI could've changed the law of Quo Primum, but he did not.  Yes, he had the authority to issue a revised missal, but he did not.  Pope Benedict XVI confirmed that Quo Primum is still in force.  Ergo, the 1962 missal, which is a legal revision of Pope St Pius V's missal, is THE MISSAL of the latin church.  Paul VI's missal is not allowed to be used without sinning, and is not required to be used.


It's also quite funny (and sad at the same time) that you are comparing authority between popes, yet you've made yourself THE highest authority, by judging the pope himself.  Oh the irony! 


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #687 on: April 19, 2018, 12:45:34 PM »

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1) Quo Primum does not bind any of the legitimate successors of St. Peter.
Quo Primum does bind his successors if the successors do not revoke or revise the law!  Once a pope is elected, all previous laws do not just go away!  If a pope wants to change a law, he must change it BY NAME.  This is how laws work.


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2) Paul VI didn't make ANY changes to the Tridentine Rite and this is what St. Pius V was forbidding. 
Go re-read Quo Primum again.  It's a very dense, but short, law.  It has 5 different parts:
1.  A command that his new missal/rite is in force, everywhere and by all...except for the few liturgies which were 200+ yrs at the time.
2.  A prohibition on ALL previous missals/rites...except for those over 200+ yrs old at the time...and that's only if they wanted to keep their old liturgy...some got rid of their old rites and went with the new one.  They had a choice, but it was a one-time choice.
3.  An authorization for ALL priests, under ANY circuмstance, to say and use his missal, in perpetuity, as a direct authorization from the pope himself.
4.  An order that ONLY his missal/rite could be used, under pain of sin.  No other missal/rite (except those 200+ yrs old) could be used.
5.  A penalty of excommunication for those that changed, added to, or deleted from his missal/rite.  Also anyone who used a different missal committed the sin of disobedience to the pope.

St Pius V did a lot more than just forbid changes to the missal.  He ordered everyone to USE his missal ONLY.  Anyone that attends the novus ordo violates Quo Primum and commits a sin of disobedience.  This is why Paul VI did not command or require anyone to go to the novus ordo - because Quo Primum didn't allow that.  And this law is still in effect, as Pope Benedict XVI confirmed in 2007.


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3) Quo Primum is a disciplinary decree.
No one is arguing that Paul VI didn't have the authority to change Quo Primum; he did have the authority.  But he never changed the law, so it's authority is still in effect, as Pope Benedict confirmed in 2007.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #688 on: April 19, 2018, 12:50:31 PM »
Cantarella,
Why do you keep changing the topic?  Why don't you address your error related to Mediator Dei, pt 50?  Let's stay on topic!

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #689 on: April 19, 2018, 02:09:58 PM »
It is not a sin to avoid the novus ordo.  If you disagree, show me where the Church teaches it is a sin.  If you can't prove this, then it's not required.