Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd? (Read 205618 times)

forlorn · « **Reply #585 on:** April 16, 2018, 01:01:58 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 16, 2018, 12:52:15 PM

There's nothing puerile about this. You just can't get your mind around it. I say that Van Noort agrees with the Church, whereas Drew says he does not. So, then, does he or doesn't he? I say Fenton agrees with the Church, but you say he does not. So does he or does he not? You're saying that YOUR perspective is consistent with dogma, and the other one is wrong. I guess that leaves each one of us to decide what is consistent with dogma and what is not ... without a final arbiter. So then our own private judgment becomes our own rule of faith.

That's where the Magisterium comes in ... for Catholics anyway, as that objective arbiter. This is Catholicism 101 vs. the Protestant heresies.

Why do you think the Prots have split up into some 23,000+ sects. Person A decides that X is consistent with Scripture, Person B decides that X is not consistent with Scripture. And for each person there's a unique rule, his own private judgment.

And 23,000 sects doesn't cover the half of it. Each Protestant pastor feels comfortable disagreeing with his own sect on whatever issues he pleases, and even Protestant laymen feel perfectly free to disagree with their own pastor. Not to mention the so-called "non-denominational" "Christians". Truly the road Drew would have us follow is a road to ruin.

Stubborn · « **Reply #586 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:03:16 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 16, 2018, 01:13:56 PM

It's already happening to a degree. Look at how many Traditonal groups there already are out there. It's because there's a vacuum of Magisterium. It's because the Shepherd has been struck that the sheep are scattered.

You refuse to believe what the Magisterium even is. The Magisterium is not the hierarchy, nor does it become what the hierarchy teaches - and it certainly is not the pope. See if it is possible for you to wrap your mind around this - at least give it a try for once..........

Magisterium:

"...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter

Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium. - Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council

Start wrapping - (not rapping).

forlorn · « **Reply #587 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:07:09 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on April 16, 2018, 02:03:16 PM

You refuse to believe what the Magisterium even is. The Magisterium is not the hierarchy, nor does it become what the hierarchy teaches - and it certainly is not the pope. See if it is possible for you to wrap your mind around this - at least give it a try for once..........

Magisterium:

"...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter

Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium. - Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council

Start wrapping - (not rapping).

The ordinary Magisterium is what the hierarchy teaches. You are conflating it with infallible Magisterium. The universal ordinary Magisterium are issues on which all Bishops and the Pope are in agreement on, and are infallible. The extraordinary Magisterium are teachings from Ecuмenical Councils or ex cathedra.

We are required to give religious assent to ALL of the Magisterium, whether infallible or not.

Stubborn · « **Reply #588 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:19:13 PM »

Quote from: forlorn on April 16, 2018, 02:07:09 PM

The ordinary Magisterium is what the hierarchy teaches. You are conflating it with infallible Magisterium. The universal ordinary Magisterium are issues on which all Bishops and the Pope are in agreement on, and are infallible. The extraordinary Magisterium are teachings from Ecuмenical Councils or ex cathedra.

We are required to give religious assent to ALL of the Magisterium, whether infallible or not.

Did you not just read from V1 those things that we are bound to believe? He does not say we are to give religious ascent to ALL the Magisterium because THAT makes no sense whatsoever. Read his instructions again read it over and over until you fully understand what he is saying.

A few examples of the Ordinary teachings of the Universal Magisterium that the pope is talking about:

Doctrine of Divine Providence
Limbo
St. John the Baptist born without Original Sin
Doctrine of our Guardian Angels
Doctrine of the Church's Indefectibility

These are all "...points of doctrine which, with common and constant consent, are held in the Church as truths and as theological conclusions so certain that opposing opinions, though they may not be dubbed heretical, nonetheless, merit some other form of theological censure." - Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter

Stubborn · « **Reply #589 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:21:40 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 16, 2018, 02:19:50 PM

He's conflating about 3 or 4 different things in that last post. He's always conflating things.

FYI, you are the conflation expert, I am simply reading what is written.

Stubborn · « **Reply #590 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:28:42 PM »

"III. The act of promulgation must be a teaching (magisterium), and not a mere statement; this teaching must witness to its identity with the original Revelation, i.e. it must always show that what is taught is identical with what was revealed; it must be a "teaching with authority" - that is, it must command the submission of the mind, because otherwise the unity and universality of the Faith could not be attained." - Scheeben

This agrees with the Church's teaching from Pope Pius IX's both Ordinary teaching and infallible teaching - which disagrees with Ladislaus' idea of what the Magisterium even is - which in Lad's estimation, means I conflated 3 or 4 different things, when all I actually did, was quote the pope.

Samuel · « **Reply #591 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:30:16 PM »

Quote from: forlorn on April 16, 2018, 11:59:53 AM

It does not matter what Drew personally interprets the dogma to mean. Catholic are still required to give faithful assent to ALL MAGISTERIUM. Rejecting the Magisterium in favour of your own interpretations of dogma is Protestant heresy.

If you accept Pope Francis as a valid Pope and the V2 Church as the true Catholic Church, you MUST assent to its teachings. There's no way around that.

Really?

Was St. Paul wrong not to assent to St. Peter's Magisterium and to resist him to the face instead?

Was the Ecuмenical Council of Constantinople wrong not to assent to pope Honorius's Magisterium but to posthumously condemn and excommunicate him?

I think there's something wrong in your post, and in your thinking!! Can you "posthumously" detect the fallacy in your own short post? ;D

In fact, like Caiphas, you said something very deep and meaningful, without really realizing what you said: "Rejecting the Magisterium in favour of your own interpretations of dogma is Protestant heresy." Is this not in a nutshell the definition of sedevacantism?

Samuel · « **Reply #592 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:35:11 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 16, 2018, 02:32:14 PM

St. Peter was not teaching the things that St. Paul resisted him for. That was not a question of Magisterium at all but of bad example and scandal.

You mean as in "the Vatican II popes never taught what we are resisting them for"? So, we have to make a distinction then, between "teaching" and "Teaching"?

Samuel · « **Reply #593 on:** April 16, 2018, 02:43:52 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on April 16, 2018, 02:33:31 PM

>>>"Rejecting the Magisterium in favour of your own interpretations of dogma is Protestant heresy." Is this not in a nutshell the definition of sedevacantism?

In fact, that is Catholicism in a nutshell.

So, you believe that "Rejecting the Magisterium in favour of your own interpretations of dogma is Catholicism in a nutshell" ?? :o :o :o

I have never encountered a mind so darkened as yours. You are truly far gone. May God have mercy on you.

Samuel · « **Reply #594 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:21:32 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella on April 16, 2018, 03:12:46 PM

What does it say here?

Can you please give a reference, as my Haydock bible seems to say something else. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong gospel/verse?

Samuel · « **Reply #595 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:28:19 PM »

Quote from: Samuel on April 16, 2018, 03:21:32 PM

Can you please give a reference, as my Haydock bible seems to say something else. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong gospel/verse?

I think I found the reference online, but I would still like you to confirm it first. And if you read the whole commentary, it actually says the opposite of what you are trying to say!!

Stubborn · « **Reply #596 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:35:02 PM »

Quote from: Bellator Dei on April 16, 2018, 03:01:36 PM

Your emphasis on the word "in" suggests that the Magisterium is the Deposit of Faith? Or the actual "teachings" from the Popes?

We discussed this earlier in the thread, but we never ventured any further than our agreement that the Magisterium (no matter the adjective placed in front of the word) is, indeed, infallible.

Just looking for some clarity...

I emphasized the word "in" to designate two things that Pope Pius IX said.

1) He said: "all those things are to be believed which are contained.... in her ordinary and universal magisterium." He previously, in that sentence, tells us exactly what it is we are to believe, which binds us, and where those things are to be found - in both the ordinary and universal magisterium.

Those things which we are bound to believe are "contained in" (vs the NO idea of "taught by"):
A) Scripture
B) Tradition
C) Solemn judgements (ex cathedra pronouncements)
D) Ordinary teachings of the Church's Universal Magisterium - which, quoting Pope Pius IX, I already enunciated.

2) To attempt to correct Lad by demonstrating what the Magisterium actually is as explained according to Blessed Pope Pius IX and also Sheeben, so that he might actually cease promoting his vague and NO inspired ideas of what it is, in place of what it actually is.

forlorn · « **Reply #597 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:36:46 PM »

Quote from: Samuel on April 16, 2018, 02:30:16 PM

Really?

Was St. Paul wrong not to assent to St. Peter's Magisterium and to resist him to the face instead?

Was the Ecuмenical Council of Constantinople wrong not to assent to pope Honorius's Magisterium but to posthumously condemn and excommunicate him?

I think there's something wrong in your post, and in your thinking!! Can you "posthumously" detect the fallacy in your own short post? ;D

In fact, like Caiphas, you said something very deep and meaningful, without really realizing what you said: "Rejecting the Magisterium in favour of your own interpretations of dogma is Protestant heresy." Is this not in a nutshell the definition of sedevacantism?

Sedevacantism does not reject the Magisterium at all, it rejects that the V2 Popes are real Popes at all. Discerning whether someone who claim to be a member of the Church hierarchy is telling the truth or not is something every Catholic must do. Or else you'd have to believe every random crazy who declared themselves Pope and follow their teachings. Just because we disagree on whether or not Francis is Pope does not mean that you do not discern whether someone is Pope or not just as we do. And of course, you would only follow the teachings of a real Pope, just as we would.

forlorn · « **Reply #598 on:** April 16, 2018, 03:53:58 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on April 16, 2018, 02:28:42 PM

"III. The act of promulgation must be a teaching (magisterium), and not a mere statement; this teaching must witness to its identity with the original Revelation, i.e. it must always show that what is taught is identical with what was revealed; it must be a "teaching with authority" - that is, it must command the submission of the mind, because otherwise the unity and universality of the Faith could not be attained." - Scheeben

This agrees with the Church's teaching from Pope Pius IX's both Ordinary teaching and infallible teaching - which disagrees with Ladislaus' idea of what the Magisterium even is - which in Lad's estimation, means I conflated 3 or 4 different things, when all I actually did, was quote the pope.

Even the fallible teachings of individual Bishops must be shown religious assent. Not even the post Vatican 2 Church supports your Protestant heresies.
Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen gentium, 25

Quote

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the docuмents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking."

Stubborn · « **Reply #599 on:** April 16, 2018, 04:11:53 PM »

Quote from: Bellator Dei on April 16, 2018, 03:43:25 PM

Just to be clear, you believe that the Magisterium is the body of teachings of the Church...yes?

Sorry, my job kept side tracking me..... yes, the truths (teachings) we must believe are contained in the Magisterium. Those are his words, not mine.

These truths (teachings) contained in the Magisterium consist of Scripture, Tradition and ex cathedra teachings - these are where the teachings are to be found and how we learn these truths which we must believe. We also learn "them" by the Church's "day to day teachings" aka the "Church's Ordinary Magisterium".

By "them", I mean, as Pope Pius IX explained; "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."

Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd? (Read 205618 times)

forlorn

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