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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 318644 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #555 on: April 13, 2018, 08:09:33 PM »
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  • Samuel, you’re like Perry Mason with your precise questions.  Bravo.  

    Cantarella, thank you for answering honestly.  I’ve yet to understand what you believe and these questions will hopefully explain it.  I’m fascinated. 

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #556 on: April 14, 2018, 02:06:31 AM »
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  • :facepalm:  Oh, for crying out loud, Drew.  Just look up "revelation" on Dictionary.com.  You'll notice that the FIRST definition is my usage, and the SECOND is yours.

    Ladislaus,
     
    You keep trying to lie your way out of an egregious error only to commit another egregious error.
     
    You said repeatedly that the "the Magiserium was not part of divine revelation."  When confronted with the dogmatic truth that the Magisterium was part of the content of divine revelation, you shifted gears by claiming that you were making an obscure distinction between the (act of) revelation and the Magisterium.  Therefore, what you really meant to say is that "the Magisterium is not part (the act of) divine revelation."
     
    Your second error is just as bad as your first.  Not only is the Magisterium part of the content of divine revelation, it is part of the act of divine revelation. Jesus Christ said to the Apostles, "But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you" (John 14:26).  The Magisterium established by Jesus Christ was functioning in the act of revelation from the beginning. Furthermore, the act itself of revelation is an action.  The verb form is transitive.  The act of revelation requires both a revealer and a receiver of the revelation.  The content of revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle but the act of revelation will continue until the end of time or the last convert, whichever comes first.  The Magisterium is part of the act of revelation and has been from the first Pentecost.
     
    Your claim now that the "Magisterium is not part of (the act of) divine revelation" is just a phony dissembling which digs a deeper hole.  Not once in any of you posts on the matter did you ever use the verb form to draw any distinctions between the act of revelation and the Magisterium.
     
    Drew  


    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #557 on: April 14, 2018, 02:10:44 AM »
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  • Please just stop.  You can't even understand English words like "Revelation" ... and it goes downhill from there.  So you're going to lecture +Guerard des Laurier with his degrees and qualifications in philosophy and theology as if he were some idiotic kindergarden student who doesn't understand basic concepts like this.  Matter and Form are Philosophy 101 ... and +Guerard is supposed to have made such an egregious blunder?  There are no words for your hubris.  Even I can easily dispatch your ignorance.  I'll do so tomorrow when I have more time.

    Ladislaus,
     
    The appeal to authority is the weakest of all arguments. 
     
    One of the great benefits of reading articles by Fr. Joseph Fenton from AER is that he typically gives the historical background of a theological problem, defines the various schools of thought regarding the problem, and identifies the principle theologians in each school.  Not only are the weaknesses various schools of theological opinions exposed, Fr. Fenton reveals some very bad errors by famous theologians.  Such as, St. Robert Bellarmine, doctor of the Church, believed and taught that a non-baptized person who pretended to be a Catholic and thereby was accepted as a Catholic by the Catholic community, would by this fact be a member of the Church.  Fr. Fenton said that this error was buried by Pope Pius XII.  Regarding membership in the Church, Fr. Fenton said of the great Jesuit, Rev. Francisco Suárez, that his opinions on Church membership were not shared by anyone and died with him.  
     
    So what can you say about Guérard des Lauriers, O.P.? As bright as he was, he did not hold dogma as his rule of faith.  I know of no evidence that he ever said anything about the case of Fr. Feeney when the literal meaning of dogma was set aside.  In the Ottaviani Intervention, no appeal was made to dogma in defense of our immemorial ecclesiastical traditions, or in particular, the "received and approved" immemorial Roman rite of Mass that the Church has always held to be of Apostolic tradition.  He like Archbishop Lefebvre considered the Mass a purely a matter of Church discipline which is a grave error and has had a crippling effect in the defense the traditional Mass.
     
    Guérard des Lauriers thesis postulates the substantial change in the papal office, a visible material being, which we know by divine and Catholic faith (i.e.: DOGMA) cannot happen. Sedevacantism and sedeprivationism both lead to heresy but sedeprivationism is more destructive because of the fact that the cleavage of the form and matter necessarily cause a substantial change in all material beings.
     
    So, since your "Magisterium is dormant" and therefore, your rule of faith dormant, are left with becoming a des Lauriersist for your rule of faith?
     
    Drew

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #558 on: April 14, 2018, 02:34:04 AM »
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  • None of these quotes actually refer to "Dogma" as the rule of faith. They do not teach what you think it does.

    The Rule of Faith for Catholics is the Infallible Magisterium, the teaching Church.


    Even the quote you provided from Constantinople IV, disprove you:

    It has already been explained that the words "canons" and "decrees" have been used in different ways throughout history, either referring to those teachings which are dogmatic or those which are disciplinary in nature.

    It is the teaching Church throughout the ages, (having the assistance of the Holy Ghost and with the successor of St. Peter as the head), and not the canon itself, which is the Rule of faith.

    And I am going add here that if you have no problem in comparing the successor of St. Peter to the scribe and Pharisee of the Scripture, is because you lack complete Catholic understating of the significance of the Papal office for the Church, and how this Office relates to "Dogma" to begin with.

    Cantarella,

    The "dogma" is not used in the first millennial council docuмents but you are mistaken if you do not think that the references provided are not directly referring to articles of "divine and Catholic faith" as their rule of faith.  We call articles of "divine and Catholic faith" dogmas.

    A strong proof that dogma is the proximate rule of faith is the definition of heresy. I did not explain it any further in previous posts because this is not an argument but rather a definition. I think if you look from the perspective of heresy it may be easier to see. An excerpt taken from the 1907 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia under the heading of "heresy":
     

    Quote
    St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas". The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church.
    Catholic Encyclopedia, 1907

     
    Heresy is "the corruption of dogmas" while "the right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching." These "teachings" are found in "the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church." What the Church, by her "teaching authority" (i.e.: Magisterium) "proposes to our belief" is called Dogma.  Those who keep Dogmas and do not corrupt them are called  the faithful, those who do corrupt them are called heretics. 
     
    This difference represents a clear division in the "Tree of Porphyry."  It is the division that establishes a species from a genus.  As the article points out, "The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith." Heresy and faith have the same object, that is, "the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church" which is the total of divine revelation. The heretic breaks the rule of faith, the faithful keep it.  This establishes that Dogma is the rule of faith not by argument but by fact of an essential definition which is the best of all types of definition. The Magisterium is necessary but insufficient means by which we know Dogma, but it is the Dogma itself which is known.  It is the what that we know and therefore the rule of faith.  If you exchange "Magisterium" for Dogma, even though the Magisterium has the same objects, there cannot be a clear distinctive division because there exists no species in the genus of Magisterium, the "teaching authority" of the Church, excepting only in the case where the Magisterium itself is treated as a dogma like every other dogma, then those who reject the "teaching authority" constituted by God in His Church are just another kind of heretic.
     
    So where is your magisterium right now which you call your rule of faith? Ladislaus and you agree that the "Magisterium is dormant" which can only mean that you have no rule of faith in the sense that it is not there, or if there, it cannot be located, or if can be located, cannot be accessed. Sedevacantism and sedeprivationism can only means by this that there is no one who can possibly engage the Magisterium (i.e.: the teaching authority) of the Church. Is it possible that the "rule of faith" could become "dormant" in the sense that the material means and the instrumental means to revive it are gone? And even if you postulate that it is not "gone," it is no longer perceptible. That it can no longer be apprehended.
     
    Drew  

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #559 on: April 14, 2018, 02:48:38 AM »
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  • Samuel, you’re like Perry Mason with your precise questions.  Bravo.  

    Cantarella, thank you for answering honestly.  I’ve yet to understand what you believe and these questions will hopefully explain it.  I’m fascinated.

    Samuel,

    I agree with Pax. It is worthwhile to expose the mass of contradictions with sedevacantism and sedeprivationism.  When pressed for explicit answers for dates, times and places of what would be historic events you get a different answer from all of them.  They elevate theological opinion to dogma and relegated dogma to theological opinion. Dogma is suitable to overthrow the Magisterium, but not suitable enough to be their rule of faith. When dogma offends their theories, the Magisterium becomes their rule of faith but, since its already put to sleep, nothing left to worry about.

    Keep it up. You may not even get the same answer twice from the same person.

    Drew


    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #560 on: April 14, 2018, 04:19:55 PM »
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  • Mr. Drew,

    The bottomline is that Catholics are not allowed to reject the decrees of an Ecunemical Council "in the name of Dogma", without falling into the Tridentine dogmatically condemned error which you never addressed.

    Also, it is an unquestionable sign of being poorly grounded upon the Faith, to believe that it is possible that a General Council ratified by the sucessor of St. Peter, (and therefore representing the Universal Church and having the assistance of the Holy Ghost), can actively teach heresy to all faithful.

    If Francis is indeed Pope, then there is no other option for you but to return to being in full communion with him. And if you happen to prefer the "Extraordinary" form of the Mass as a matter of choice, then you need to attend a Mass offered by the FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, or a diocesan priest who offers the Mass "in Latin".

    Also, the Church does not promulgate evil or defective rites, so you are not allowed to think of the Novus Ordo rite promulgated by Paul VI (if he was indeed Pope), as an an invalid, impious, sacrilegious, schismatic. etc. form of the Mass. If you do, then you are an Anathema as per infallible condemnation of Trent:

    You are allowed to "prefer" the Latin Mass over the Novus Ordo, sure, if it is more appealing to your taste; but you need to accept that if Paul VI was Pope, both ecclesiastical rites are valid and therefore, pleasing to God. You cannot say otherwise. I would hope you are fully aware of that, given your preoccupation with "Dogma".

    Cantarella,

    You have boxed yourself in with set of presuppositions that are not true.  It is you who hold the Magisterium as the rule of faith; you believe that Vatican II, as an ecuмenical council must be necessarily an act of the Magisterium and therefore infallible, and therefore must be accepted in all its decrees without exception. The whole problem is further confounded by your belief that the pope possess a personal "never-failing faith" and cannot be a heretic or support heresy. Mix this in with your belief that the Attribute of Indefectibility means that the pope possesses an non-infallible infallibility in all his authentic ordinary magisterium acts and you are stuck with the pope as your rule of faith. I know that you say it's the "Magisterium" but not in practice, because the pope is the holder of the key to the Magisterium, he becomes the rule of faith by default.
     
    Once saddled with this baggage,  you look to dogma, [that you really have no right to do because it is not your rule of faith as Ladislaus characterized this as "private judgment"] and conclude that Vatican II taught error therefore the pope cannot be the pope, the council cannot be a council. From this point the imagination takes over and constructs theories on how the papal election must have been fraudulent, not once but repeatedly for Sedeprivationists. It is simpler for Sedevacantists who admit the possibility of a heretical pope and remove him for his manifest crime. All of this really distills down to holding the pope as the rule of faith. You have no grounds not to return to the Novus Ordo religion because, if the Magisterium is the rule of faith, they can make it up as they go along. That is what happened to Fr. Feeney. They first undermined the authority of dogma by changing the definitions of terms, and then by moving dogma from the category of truth/falsehood to the category of authority/obedience, they introduce every condition that modifies the duty of obedience to excuse from conforming to revealed truth.  When the dust settled, dogma was relegated to anything the "magisterium" said it meant and we got salvation by implicit desire.  Even luminaries such as Fr. Joseph Fenton and Fr. Garrigou- Lagrange went along with this corruption.  All of this was just the preamble for Vatican II.  Without dogma as a ground or dogma as a goal, it became a free flight of fantasy.
     
    I have seen several cases where sedevacantists return to the Novus Ordo religion.  It happens because the entire structure becomes involved in a mass of contradictions that are incompatible with articles of "divine and Catholic faith."  There is no agreement on any of the moral qualificators of the crime: who, what, when, where, how, and to what extent. They end up returning and trying to work their way through the hermeneutic of continuity.
     
    I don't accept any of these presuppositions. I hold dogma as my proximate rule of faith and follow the norms of Catholic morality in forming a true and certain conscience that I try to faithfully follow.
    St. Pius X said:

    Quote
    “They (the modernists) exercise all their ingenuity in an effort to weaken the force and falsify the character of Tradition, so as to rob it of all its weight and authority.  But for Catholics nothing will remove the authority of the second Council of Nicea, where it condemns those ‘who dare, after the impious fashion of heretics, to deride the ecclesiastical traditions, to invent novelties of some kind.... or endeavor by malice or craft to overthrow any one of the legitimate traditions of the Catholic Church’; nor that of the declaration of the fourth Council of Constantinople: ‘We therefore profess to preserve and guard the rules bequeathed to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, by the Holy and most illustrious Apostles, by the orthodox Councils, both general and local, and by every one of those divine interpreters, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.’ Wherefore the Roman Pontiffs, Pius IV and Pius IX, ordered the insertion in the profession of faith of the following declaration: ‘I most firmly admit and embrace the apostolic and ecclesiastical traditions and other observances and constitutions of the Church’”
    St. Pius X, Pascendi

    I deny that immemorial ecclesiastical traditions are just matters of mere discipline but hold that they are necessary attributes of the faith by which is can be known and communicated to others.
     
    The Novos Ordo Missae is rejected on the same grounds.  The "received and approved rites customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments" is a Dogma incorporated in the Tridentine profession of faith and reaffirmed at Vatican I.  No pope possesses the right to invent a Novus Ordo and no Catholic is obligated to accept it. Furthermore, no pope possesses the authority to command anything contrary to the virtue of Religion.
     

    Quote
    “If anyone shall say that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church accustomed to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments may be disdained or omitted by the minister without sin and at pleasure, or may be changed to other new rites by any church pastor whomsoever : let him be anathema”(emphasis mine) (Council of Trent, Den. 856).

    The canon you cite, "the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs, which the Catholic Church makes use of in the celebration of masses" is referring to the "received and approved rites customarily used in the solemn administration of the sacraments." It is the "received and approved rites" that cannot be "incentives to impiety."
     
    Regarding the authority of Vatican II, the attribute of Infallibility belongs to the Church. If the pope wants to engage this power he must do so with intent to define a revealed doctrine of Catholic faith and/or morals. This essential quality was wholly absent from Vatican II which as Canon Hesse said had the nature of a extraordinary synod at best. It was not present before, during or after the Council. Because I hold Dogma as my rule of faith, I am at liberty to reject anything that is proposed that in any way contradicts an "article of divine and Catholic Faith," that is Dogma.  It is because I adhere to Dogma that I reject any novelty from Vatican II such as Religious Liberty that posits a belief that human nature is so exalted that no one is obligated to believe what their Creator has revealed or obey His commandments. It necessarily leads to the corruption of Catholic morality and the overturning of Dogma. 
     
    Every Catholic is morally obligated to inform and follow his conscience.  A properly formed conscience should be both true and certain before every act.  Once a conscience is thought to be, not necessarily be but only believed to be true and certain, a Catholic is obligated to follow it.  If this places a Catholic in a state of fixed objective disobedience to the current hierarchy, he is obligated to justify his disobedience and the hierarchy is obligated to address any legitimate grounds offered. 
     
    For the last 15 years that is what I have done. There are over 50 Open Letters posted on Ss. Peter & Paul Roman Catholic Mission web page from Fr. Waters and myself to local ordinaries and Rome and their replies.  I as a Catholic have a right to a definitive judgment from the Chair of Peter on the questions of faith and morals placed before them.  This right is affirmed by Lyons II and Vatican I. Every right imposes a reciprocal obligation. I have placed before Rome everyone of the presuppositions you carry in a back-pack demanding a solemn judgment on the matter. They have provided no answer beyond the 1989 Profession of Faith. That is their one and only answer to every question of doctrine, morality, liturgy, and canon law.
     
    No conciliar pope has actually engaged the Attribute of Infallibility of the Church to bind doctrinal or moral error. In the rare instances where the ordinary and universal magisterium has been engaged, such as John Paul II's appeal to the apostolic tradition of forbidding ordination of women, I have no problem accepting this teaching.  Have you ever wondered why none of these heretical popes have engaged the Attribute of Infallibility of the Church to bind doctrinal or moral error? Why this has not happened over the last 50 years in spite of controlling the entire Vatican apparatus?  This is the evidence of Indefectibility and the fact that their other corruptions of discipline, such as the Novus Ordo, have never been accepted by the universal Church. 
     
    Drew

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #561 on: April 14, 2018, 04:45:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    :facepalm:  Oh, for crying out loud, Drew.  Just look up "revelation" on Dictionary.com.  You'll notice that the FIRST definition is my usage, and the SECOND is yours.
    Quote
    noun
    1.  the act of revealing or disclosing; disclosure.
    2.  something revealed or disclosed, especially a striking disclosure, as of something not before realized.

    Is this like saying the declaration of Pope Pius IX of the Immaculate Conception is not part of divine revelation, but the Immaculate Conception is?

    In other words, specific acts of the magisterium are not part of revelation, but the dogmas are.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #562 on: April 14, 2018, 08:24:02 PM »
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  • The Rule of Faith, is it Dogma or the Magisterium?

    Let's start with the definition of the Rule of Faith:

    The word rule (Latin regula, Gr. kanon) means a standard by which something can be tested, and the rule of faith means something extrinsic to our faith, and serving as its norm or measure. Since faith is Divine and infallible, the rule of faith must be also Divine and infallible; and since faith is supernatural assent to Divine truths upon Divine authority, the ultimate or remote rule of faith must be the truthfulness of God in revealing Himself. But since Divine revelation is contained in the written books and unwritten traditions (Vatican Council, I, ii), the Bible and Divine tradition must be the rule of our faith; since, however, these are only silent witnesses and cannot interpret themselves, they are commonly termed "proximate but inanimate rules of faith". Unless, then, the Bible and tradition are to be profitless, we must look for some proximate rule which shall be animate or living. (New Advent)

    So, we're looking for the proximate and animate or living Rule of Faith. Whatever that rule is, what are it's necessary attributes?

    1. It must be Divine and infallible. Private interpretation for example cannot be our Rule of Faith, because it is neither Divine nor infallible.

    2. It must be proximate. In other words, we must have access to it, here and now. Whenever a dispute arises we must be able to go to our Rule of Faith to "measure" and settle the dispute.

    3. It must be animate or living. What does that mean? Since Scripture and Tradition are called inanimate because they "cannot interpret themselves", we know that animate or living means that it must be able to interpret itself. In other words, if we don't understand what the Rule of Faith means, we must be able to ask that same Rule of Faith to further explain itself.

    Let's apply these criteria to our two contenders, Dogma and the Magisterium. We'll start with Dogma.

    1. Is Dogma Divine and infallible? Yes.

    2. Is Dogma proximate? Yes, we all have access to all the dogmas of our Faith anytime we want to. (Except.. the first Christians..see further down!)

    3. Is Dogma animate or living? No, since Dogma cannot interpret itself, for the same reason as Scripture and Tradition cannot interpret themselves.

    So, I conclude that Dogma is NOT the proximate and animate Rule of Faith. At best, we can consider Dogma as part of Tradition, i.e part of the proximate and inanimate Rule of Faith.

    What about the Magisterium?

    1. Is the Magisterium Divine and infallible? Yes, although this is where the distinction must be made between the Extraordinare and Ordinary Magisterium on the one hand, and the Authentic Magisterium on the other. The former is indeed infallible and Divine, while the latter is not infallible and can therefore not be part of our Rule of Faith.

    2. Is the Magisterium proximate? Yes, because the Church will always remain with us as Christ promised He will always remain with us. But just as during Christ's passion His humanity was disfigured and his Divinity thereby obscured or hidden, so also is in today's crisis of the Church the Authentic Magisterium so disfigured that it is obscuring or hiding the Ordinary Magisterium. Nevertheless, the Infallible Magisterium remains proximate to those who are willing to see past appearances. We still have Catholic bishops who are willing to remain faithful to Tradition and teach what the Church has always and everywhere taught.

    3. Is the Magisterium animate or living? Yes, because the Magisterium is able to interpret itself. Whenever a new dispute arises, the Magisterium does not add any new doctrines to Divine revelation (which it can't do), but it explains and settles the disputes that arise. The Magisterium cannot contradict itself, but it can interpret itself.

    Therefore, I argue that the Infallible Magisterium (Extraordinary and Ordinary) is the proximate and living Rule of Faith for Catholics.

    Further questions and arguments:

    1. If you believe Dogma is the Rule of Faith, what about the first Christians then, what was their Rule of Faith? No Dogmas had been promulgated yet. But whenever a dispute arose they brought the matter before the Apostles, and especially before Peter who would settle the matter once and for all. Hence the saying, "Rome locuta, causa finita est".

    2. Our Lord told the apostles to "go and teach", not to "go and distribute dogmas", and "whoever believes you believes Me, whoever rejects you rejects Me". So it makes sense that our proximate and living rule of Faith is the living Magisterium, who is the sole legitimate interpreter of Sacred Scripture and Tradition.

    3. What about all the truths of our faith which must be believed but which are not explicitly defined in dogmas? For example, "Doctrines of Ecclesiastical Faith" and "Truths of Divine Faith"? (see What are Theological Notes?) They too must be believed with different levels of assent. And those who reject them without a sufficiently grave reason are likewise to be treated as bad Catholics or even "suspect of heresy".

    4. As Fr. Berry and Cardinal Billot explain, not everyone who holds a heretical doctrine is a heretic, but rather he is a heretic who rejects the teaching authority of the Church. The former is a Catholic in error, but the latter is properly defined as a heretic, because he rejects the teaching authority of the Church, in other words, the Magisterium.

    Important Note:

    1. As I mentioned before, the error which leads either to Conciliarism or Sedevecantism is a failure to distinguish between the Extraordinary/Ordinary Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium.

    2. The above is how I understand the teachings of the Church, but since I could be wrong, I subject everything I said to the Infallible Magisterium, who shall have the last word!  :)


    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #563 on: April 14, 2018, 10:00:56 PM »
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  • This is half an answer, at the most. I hope those in the fence with honest integrity can see it. You go around in circles getting into other topics irrelevant to the question in hand.  

    First, you omit to respond how is it exactly that your position does not fall directly into this dogmatic Lutheran error # 29, infallibly condemned in the Council of Trent:


    CONDEMNED:
    I suspect it is because you know that from your position, you really do not have a credible way to say that Vatican II Council was NOT a Council of the Church. And considered not only a General synod, but an Ecunemical Council if that!. Mr. Hesse is plain wrong on that account. Vatican II Council is considered an Ecunemical Council of the Church; not a mere "extraordinary synod".

    What is the crucial element which makes a Council Ecunemical? the approbation of the Pope of Rome. A General Council is only Ecunemical when the Roman Pontiff ratifies it. A general Council WITHOUT the Pope approval means nothing. It is a "extraordinary synod" at best, as Mr. Hesse suggests. That is why, under the sedevacantists theory, we can actually say that Vatican II Council was NOT an Ecunemical Council at all, because it lacks the papal approbation necessary to make it so, given that it was not a true Pope, but an impostor, who promulgated it.

    Remember, the world - wide assembly of Bishops WITHOUT the Pope is NOT Infallible.

    Cantarella,

    You believe that an Ecuмenical council is always infallible. But if or when you detect an error in that same infallible council, you conclude that it cannot have been a real council because you detected an error. What in Heaven's name does infallibility mean to you then? Is it merely a label that YOU stick on if or when YOU have given YOUR approval? Sorry, Cantarella, that is not what infallibility means to a Catholic. At best this is a protestant fallacy.

    Infallibility to a Catholic means this : give me a box full of doctrines, as long as it is wrapped in infallibility paper I will accept whatever is in that box, whether I like it or not.

    Infallibility to you obviously means this: give me a box full of doctrines, whether wrapped in infallibility paper or not, if I open my present and I like it I will call it infallible, but if don't like what's in it I will reject the present as well as the one who gave it to me.

    It is crazy!

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #564 on: April 14, 2018, 10:30:05 PM »
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  • The Church does not contradict Herself, because God does not contradict Himself.

    There are two highest vehicles for infallible truth: Papal ex-Cathedra pronouncements, and Ecunemical Councils. These two cannot teach AGAINST the Faith. If you find a contradiction in any of the 20 Ecunemical Councils approved by the Church, please let me know.  

    If as a Roman Catholic, I cannot trust the Pope of Rome, the Vicar of Christ Himself, and I cannot longer trust the Ecunemical Councils of the Church either, then, only despair awaits for me. I may as well declare my Bible my Rule of Faith, which is Protestant.

    The despair you mention is exactly like the despair of the Apostles immediately after the Passion and Crucifixion.

    They failed to distinguish between Christ's humanity and His Divinity: "If Christ was truly God, then He would have never died on the cross, but since He did die on the cross, how can He really be God?"

    Likewise, you refuse to distinguish between the Ordinary and the Authentic Magisterium. You erroneously believe that the Authentic Magisterium is infallible, so when it does err you believe it cannot be the Authentic Magisterium and you reject it.

    The same obstinate mind block, the same resulting error to "throw the baby out with the bathwater".

    Do you believe Vatican II should have been infallible? Prove it!

    PS : Meanwhile, I'm still interested in hearing your explanation of how we got a Paul VI. Was he orthodox, an occult heretic or a public heretic at the time of his election?

    PPS : Your answer, whether true or false, still does not solve the problem of your version of infallibility. It is not a Catholic version.

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #565 on: April 14, 2018, 11:09:59 PM »
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  • Only an anti-Pope could promulgate VII Nostra Aetate.

    But you also believe that..

    1. ..the pope who is an occult heretic remains a valid pope.

    2. ..a publicly heretical pope was never a valid pope to begin with.

    3. ..a validly elected pope cannot lose the faith and become a heretic.

    If you believe Paul VI was an anti-Pope, then his election must have been invalid according to #2 and #3.

    But you admitted that his heresy only became public in 1965, which means that at best we can assume (but not prove) that his heresy was occult before that. But an occult heretic can still be pope according to #1.

    Can you see the contradiction?

    And since you believe that "the Church does not contradict Herself, because God does not contradict Himself", I argue that your theory is not according to the teaching of the Church. You must have made an error somewhere!



    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #566 on: April 15, 2018, 12:35:38 AM »
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  • There is a misunderstanding in premise #1.

    To the question:

    I said yes, because occult heretics are still visible members of the Church. I quoted Bellarmine saying that "the Pope who is an occult heretic remains a valid Pope" and this would make sense because nobody knows his heresy but God.  

    However, I personally believe that because the Pope's Faith is infallible and cannot fail (I have Catholic sources of the highest reputation to support this assertion), he cannot be an occult HERETIC to being with. Yes, the successor of St. Peter is still human and may imprudently err in private writings, perhaps have a sinful, even depraved life, but he cannot lose his Roman Catholic Faith because Our Lord prayed for it. Bellarmine himself accepts my reasoning as a pious belief.


    I am presently on the opinion that we have been having no Catholics, but perfidious Jews for "Popes" since Vatican II Council.

    But that makes matters only worse.

    If Paul VI was not a public heretic (his heresy became only public in 1965), and he was not an occult heretic (otherwise he would not have lost the faith), he must have been an orthodox Catholic. Yet, you still maintain that he was an invalid pope right from the start. Which begs the question, why? Why was his election invalid if he was an orthodox Catholic?

    This is why I asked what could possibly be this secret impediment that causes a papal election to be secretly invalid. You answered: The secret impediment could be that the elected is actually a mason or a marrano, and therefore an enemy of the Faith who has the intention to do harm.

    I asked you to clarify: Do you believe a secret freemason (other than the pope) retains his ecclesiastical office, until he is found out and "deprived of his position" (i.e. deposed) by "due canonical process"?

    To which you answered: Yes. The association to the lodge must be public in order to incur automatic excommunication. I believe in the case of the impostor, he never held the Catholic Faith to begin with. But was a freemason from the beginning. If it is secret, well... nobody knows but God.

    So, are you saying that Paul VI was an orthodox Catholic freemason who never held the Catholic Faith to begin with? That sounds like a contradiction again!?

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #567 on: April 15, 2018, 04:11:56 AM »
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  • There is a misunderstanding in premise #1.

    To the question:

    I said yes, because occult heretics are still visible members of the Church. I quoted Bellarmine saying that "the Pope who is an occult heretic remains a valid Pope" and this would still make sense because nobody knows his heresy but God, so there is no human way he loses office.  

    However, I personally believe that because the Pope's Faith is infallible and cannot fail (I have Catholic sources of the highest reputation to support this assertion), he cannot be an occult HERETIC to being with. Yes, the successor of St. Peter is still human and may imprudently err in private writings, perhaps have a sinful, even depraved life, but he cannot lose his Roman Catholic Faith because Our Lord prayed for it. He cannot officially or judicially teach heretical error to the faithful either. You may as well become a Protestant if you believe this is even possible. Bellarmine himself accepts my reasoning as a pious belief.



    I am presently on the opinion that we have been having no Catholics, but perfidious Jews for "Popes" since Vatican II Council.

    I wonder whether I misread/misunderstood your answer. Let's try again. According to the first part of your answer, you believe that it is possible that:

    1. Paul VI became a public heretic in 1965.
    2. Therefore, he never was a valid pope to begin with.
    3. The reason his papal election was invalid could be because he was an occult heretic at the time.
    4. You admit that this is only your own opinion and that Bellarmine held the contrary opinion as more probable, i.e that occult heresy does not invalidate a papal election.

    Is this correct?

    But then according to the last sentence, you actually believe that Paul VI wasn't even a Catholic at all. He only pretended to be a Catholic, like a true marrano.

    Is this correct?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #568 on: April 15, 2018, 06:51:00 AM »
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  • Now, it is most certainly true that even sedevacantists begin with their PRIVATE JUDGMENT that the V2 teachings are erroneous.  Based on the nature of this crisis, there's no getting out this.

    But there's a reason why this is much more acceptable than the R&R use of private judgment.

    HINT:  It has to do with the theological concept of "motives of credibility".
    "Motives of Credibility" is right up there with your "Universal Discipline", "Canonical Submission", "Infallible Safety", "Fallible (in inconsequential matters) Magisterium" and at least a few other NO terms I can't recall at the moment . All are deemed infallible by you and the NO.  The difference between you and the NOers is, the NOers actually believe in those terms.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #569 on: April 15, 2018, 07:01:41 AM »
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  • When Drew keeps claiming that dogma is the proximate rule of faith, what Drew is saying is that Drew's interpretation of dogma is the proximate rule of faith, that his own private judgment is the proximate rule of faith.

    You see this kind of thing ALL THE TIME here on CathInfo from the "as it is written" crowd like Stubborn.  Unfortunately, half the time the "as it is written" means that we are to assume Stubborn's misreading of what's written due to poor theological and reading-comprehension skills on his part.  But he keeps bloviating over and over again about how his reading of the dogma = dogma itself.  Same with Drew.  Drew's INTERPRETATION of dogma = dogma itself.
    You do not comprehend the most fundamental truths of Catholic faith, so you have zero room to talk about others' theological reading comprehension.

    You lost your ability to comprehend the fundamental and most basic of Catholic, theological truths when you took the Sanborn theological reading comprehension course - as you previously admitted: "Unfortunately, I got into that mindset under Father Sanborn, and that pretty much destroyed my vocation to the priesthood".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse