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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 318700 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #420 on: April 05, 2018, 10:59:45 AM »
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  • If V2 requires submission, then why haven't trads been accused of 'sin', 'heresy', and 'excommunication'?  (and don't mention the sspx excommunications - those had nothing to do with V2, but with the ordinations).  The reason they won't charge trads with the above is because they can't.  And they have admitted this after the fact.

    Those quotes by Cardinal Ratzinger and Paul VI were just political posturing, to keep those conservative novus ordo-ites from leaving and joining Tradition, which was gaining ground at the time.  Notice that they never point to any "facts" or "laws" when they talk about disobedience; it's all a non-specific threat, which history now shows, was empty.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #421 on: April 05, 2018, 11:59:22 AM »
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  • Thanks, BD.  This quote exposes Pax's lie.  Sadly, on this point at least, Paul VI is MORE CATHOLIC than a lot of the R&R folks here.

    It is obvious that he certainly believes the rule of faith is the magisterium, unlike you who only say it is your rule of faith.

    If the magisterium actually is your rule of faith, then it is with magisterial certainty that you must believe that Pope Paul VI is infallibly correct and all trads, including you, are indeed outside of the Church.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #422 on: April 05, 2018, 12:50:51 PM »
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  • How many times does it need to be explained to you that we don't believe that Paul VI has Magisterium?  That is the very point of sedevacantism/sedeprivationism.
    You have no right to believe your rule of faith is not the rule of faith when it comes to V2, because to do so means the magisterium is not your rule of faith.

    It's very simple.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #423 on: April 05, 2018, 01:11:27 PM »
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  • Stubbornian Logic --

    assumes that the V2 popes are legitimate in order to prove that they are legitimate.

    Premise 1:  V2 Popes are legitimate popes.
    Premise 2: [insert any nonsense here, whether true or false]
    Conclusion:  V2 Popes are legitimate popes.
    No, I gave you logic, what is apparent, is you have no faith to see it.

    FYI, it is illogical (not to mention iniquitous) to say the magisterium aka pope / hierarchy is your rule of faith, then say you don't believe the pope / hierarchy is the magisterium. 

    Perhaps if you think of it along the lines of The Ten Commandments. We are bound to the commandments, not to Moses. We are bound to dogma, not to popes - ergo, the rule of faith is dogma, not the pope.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #424 on: April 05, 2018, 01:30:13 PM »
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  • Cantarella,

    Which of these two mutually exclusive positions do you believe is the correct one:

    1. A validly elected pope can fall into heresy.

    2. A validly elected pope can not fall into heresy.

    Keep in mind that in #1 we're not talking about what happens if or when he falls into heresy, we're only talking about whether it is possible or not that a pope can fall into heresy.

    Cantarella, did you forget about answering this question, or would you like me to leave you alone?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #425 on: April 05, 2018, 01:33:36 PM »
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  • Stubborn, in the attached screenshot of Danzinger dogmatic definitions it is clearly read:

    About the infallibility of the church dispersed throughout the world to propose the traditional doctrine of Christ. I have already translated it but for some reason, cannot copy it here so I am just attaching another screenshot where the doctrine is explained. See #1683. (this is because of your issue with the infallibility of bishops throughout the world).
    Is this the translation you are trying to get? This is almost the same translation that Pope Pius IX taught in Tuas Libenter here. I see nothing whatsoever regarding the NO's "totality of bishops doctrine". This part teaches the absolute necessity of using dogma to refute errors.

    1683 While, in truth, We laud these men with due praise because they professed the truth which necessarily arises from their obligation to the Catholic faith, We wish to persuade Ourselves that they did not wish to confine the obligation, by which Catholic teachers and writers are absolutely bound, only to those decrees which are set forth by the infallible judgment of the Church as dogmas of faith to be believed by all [see n. 1722]. And We persuade Ourselves, also, that they did not wish to declare that that perfect adhesion to revealed truths, which they recognized as absolutely necessary to attain true progress in the sciences and to refute errors, could be obtained if faith and obedience were given only to the dogmas expressly defined by the Church. For, even if it were a matter concerning that subjection which is to be manifested by an act of divine faith, nevertheless, it would not have to be limited to those matters which have been defined by express decrees of the ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this See, but would have to be extended also to those matters which are handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching power of the whole Church spread throughout the world, and therefore, by universal and common consent are held by Catholic theologians to belong to faith.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #426 on: April 05, 2018, 01:42:29 PM »
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  • Stubborn, in the attached screenshot of Danzinger dogmatic definitions it is clearly read:

    About the infallibility of the church dispersed throughout the world to propose the traditional doctrine of Christ. I have already translated it but for some reason, cannot copy it here so I am just attaching another screenshot where the doctrine is explained. See #1683. (this is because of your issue with the infallibility of bishops throughout the world).

    Pius IX is talking about the Ordinary Magisterium, and not about the Authentic Magisterium. Read the whole section #1683, especially the last part:

    "..but would have to be extended also to those matters which are handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching power of the whole Church spread throughout the world, and therefore, by universal and common consent are held by Catholic theologians to belong to faith."

    Offline Jeremiah2v8

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #427 on: April 05, 2018, 01:49:58 PM »
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  • How many times does it need to be explained to you that we don't believe that Paul VI has Magisterium?  That is the very point of sedevacantism/sedeprivationism.

    Sedeprivationism.

    Before Vatican II the law of identity excluded partially pregnant and partially pope. 

    At least one cannot still be partially pregnant. 

    For now. 


    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #428 on: April 05, 2018, 01:50:34 PM »
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  • It ALWAYS boils down to the same problem: a failure to distinguish between the Ordinary Magisterium and the Authentic Magisterium.

    Offline Jeremiah2v8

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #429 on: April 05, 2018, 02:23:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jeremiah2v8 on Today at 01:49:58 PM
    Quote
    Sedeprivationism.

    Before Vatican II the law of identity excluded partially pregnant and partially pope.

    At least one cannot still be partially pregnant.

    For now.

    So you make it clear that you don't understand the concept of a distinction.

    This is one rough crowd.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #430 on: April 05, 2018, 02:31:53 PM »
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  • He's talking about the ORDINARY UNIVERSAL MAGISTERIUM ... which is by definition of course authentic.

    Quote
    Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter:
    Even when it is only a question of the submission owed to divine faith, this cannot be limited merely to points defined by the express decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See; this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith.
    Note the submission of faith is not limited to defined dogma, but also to teachings of the Ordinary teachings of the Universal Magisterium - WHICH MEANS: our submission of faith is also owed to "all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."

    A few examples off the top of my head of the Ordinary teachings of the Universal Magisterium that the pope is talking about:

    Doctrine of Divine Providence
    Limbo
    St. John the Baptist born without Original Sin
    Doctrine of our Guardian Angels
    Doctrine of the Church's Indefectibility


    These are all "...points of doctrine which, with common and constant consent, are held in the Church as truths and as theological conclusions so certain that opposing opinions, though they may not be dubbed heretical, nonetheless, merit some other form of theological censure."




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Samuel

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #431 on: April 05, 2018, 03:28:25 PM »
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  • This would be the answer:

    2. A validly elected pope can not fall into heresy.

    However, I do believe that it is within the realm of possibility that an impostor (or in this case, a marrano) can be elected to the Papacy as it occurred with antipope Clement VII or antipope Alexander V.

    Thank you for the clear answer. Please bear with me, I am trying to fully understand your position.

    Which of the following mutually exclusive statements is your position:

    1. Immediately after the election of a pope, a Catholic can determine whether the election was valid, i.e. whether the elected is a valid pope or an imposter.

    2. Immediately after the election of a pope, a Catholic cannot determine whether the election was valid, i.e. whether the elected is a valid pope or an imposter.

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #432 on: April 05, 2018, 07:37:47 PM »
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  • Mr. Drew,

    If your rule of Faith is "dogma" as you say, then in order to be truly consistent, you need to adhere to the dogma that Ecunemical Councils are infallible, and therefore, they require absolute obedience; not selective. The Denzinger's edition "Enchiridion symbolorum et definitionum" by Professor Ignatius Stahl, I think the 9th edition published after Vatican I Council, lists the heading "Concilium generale representat Ecclesiam Universalem, eique absolute obediendum" (General councils represent the universal Church and demand absolute obedience).

    I have a copy of the 10th edition, dated 1910, attached is a screen of the index concerning infallibility under Potestas Docendi (See II.). It is impossible that R&R can prove that General Councils ratified by the Pope, even if they do not pronounce infallible "canons and anathemas", do not fully represent the Ecclesiam Universalem and thus, require absolute obedience and assent.  

    This is a dogmatic truth.

    Cantarella,

    This is terrible argument.  You are not citing a dogma.  You are citing the opinion of Professor Ignatius Stahl, who may have been the editor of this particular edition of Denzinger's, and pretending that must be dogma too.  Are you willing to do the same thing with the early 1960s edition?  It was Fr. Karl Rahner who edited the early 1960's edition of Denzinger's where he inserted his own comments on the question of Baptism.  Are those comments now to be considered "dogmatic"?  

    There is no dogma that claims that everything in every ecuмenical council is infallible.  And there never will be because it is not true.

    You are not seeking truth.  You are trying to bend it to your will.  

    You are a member of a church that is not the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and He constituted His Church with a pope.  You do not have one and you have no means of ever getting one.  The church you belong to is missing an essential attribute of the Catholic Church.  To this fact you offer no reply.  Why?  Is it that you recognize that you have a dirty face and there is nothing more to do than to try and make sure everyone is just as dirty? The real problem for you is that the dogma I am citing is a real dogma.  The "dogma" you are citing is make believe. The punishment for failing to keep the dogma I am citing is heresy.  The punishment for not keeping your "dogma" is nothing.  This kind of argument you are offering is no better than your last one claiming the Pastor Aeternus defends sedevacantism when, in fact, it condemns it directly because the Catholic Church will and must have perpetual successors in the papacy until the end of time.

    Now you and Ladislaus have argued in different posts that everything in an ecuмenical council is necessarily infallible.  You have argued that the pope possess a personal never-failing faith.  You have argued that the pope is infallibly infallible when he wants to be infallible, and he is fallibly infallible when he does not want to be infallible.  All this is possible because he possess a personal Indefectiblity called "infallible security."  So you claim that the pope is not your rule of faith but rather the magisterium, but everything your pope does is infallible and the magisterium is meaningless without a pope, so, your rule of faith is the pope by default whom who tuned into a god. The pope is always infallible until you catch him making a mistake and then he is no longer the pope.  In the end, the only rule of faith you have is yourself.

    The only thing you can do in conscience is return to the Novus Ordo Church.  Every Catholic must try his best to form a true and certain conscience and then is morally bound to follow that conscience.  You have made the pope infallible in everything. You have made the magisterium infallible in everything.  It is not possible, under these claims, that the Novus Ordo Church could possibly be in error.  If it is as you claim, "General councils represent the universal Church and demand absolute obedience," then you are morally obligated to return to the Novus Ordo.  Your arguments are the same arguments that conservative Catholics like Emmett O'Regan take such complacency.  

    Drew

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #433 on: April 05, 2018, 09:29:40 PM »
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  • Quote
    Paul VI, Address, May 24, 1976

    It is so painful to take note of this: but how can we not see in such an attitude – whatever may be these people’s intentions – the placing of themselves outside obedience and communion with the Successor of Peter and therefore outside the Church?  For this, unfortunately, is the logical consequence, when, that is, it is held as preferable to disobey with the pretext of preserving one’s faith intact, and of working in one’s way for the preservation of the Catholic Church, while at the same time refusing to give her effective obedience.  And this is said openly.  It is even affirmed that the Second Vatican Council is not binding: that the faith would also be in danger because of the reforms and post-conciliar directives, that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions.  

    As you see, Venerable Brothers, such an attitude sets itself up as a judge of that divine will which placed Peter and his lawful successors at the head of the Church to confirm the brethren in the faith, and to feed the universal flock, and which established him as the guarantor and custodian of the deposit of faith…
    This whole address is full of half-truths and contradictions.  "Par for the course" for a modernist.  

    1.  Traditionalism is not "outside of obedience/communion" with the Successor of St Peter.  They ARE outside of communion with 'new rome'.  Paul VI did not use his papal authority to AUTHORITATIVELY declare doctrine, nor did he teach with CERTAINTY OF FAITH.  Ergo, V2 requires only conditional assent.

    2.  Name me ONE, just ONE, obligation that V2 imposes upon the faithful.  (hint, there is none).  Therefore, no Trad is "refusing to give her effective obedience".  Notice, too, that Paul VI talks in the 3rd person here.  He argues that Trads are not giving obedience to "her" (meaning the Church).  He does not say that Trads are disobeying "him", because he knows that he did not require any such obedience through V2.  MIND GAMES AND WORD TRICKERY!  What the modernists are known for...

    Notice also, another common trick of new-rome - to use the false and novel idea of "collegiality" (i.e. the pope + all bishops) to confer some new type of "authority" which will replace the authority that Paul VI did not use, and knew he could not use, on V2 docuмents.  This is a way to confuse the faithful that the magisterium was "in effect" since the council was "ecuмenical" even though it was the first ecuмenical council EVER to fail to define anything.  The lack of definitions/canons/authority was the FIRST NOVELTY in a council FULL OF NOVELTIES.  It wasn't like ANY of the previous ecuмenical councils in any way, shape or form.  Anyone who will not admit this has no integrity.

    3.  "It is affirmed (by Trads)...that V2 is not binding".  No, it's only affirmed that V2 requires "religious CONDITIONAL assent" and nothing more.  Modernists want to setup this binary, either-or, mindset where you either 1) accept V2 100% or 2) you reject it 100%.  "Religious conditional assent" doesn't work that way.  V2's docuмents don't read that way.  V2 theologians don't explain things that way.  Neither did Benedict XVI, when he was finally elected...he admitted that the "apparent errors" needed to be understood in the "light of tradition" and for those errors that cannot, that the Church will continue to let the Holy Ghost guide Her in explaining these apparent contradictions.  ...Still waiting 50 years later...

    4.  (It is wrong to say) "that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions".  Well, again, disobedience does NOT enter into the conversation because V2 did not BIND anyone to believe anything "with certainty of faith", under "pain of sin" as a "matter of salvation".  All else is accepted CONDITIONALLY, and it is NOT wrong to "stick with tradition" when certain traditions are OBLIGATORY according to PRIOR INFALLIBLE MAGISTERIUMS.


    Quote
    A full recognition of the Second Vatican Council and the Magisterium of Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI himself is an indispensable condition for any future recognition of the Society of Saint Pius X…

    Define "recognition".  Anyone who accepts V2 with 'religious conditional assent' recognizes it for what it is - a non-dogmatic, non-infallible, non-binding, non-authoritative, ambiguous collection of rambling, long-winded theoretical ideas on why/how the church should be "updated" at a pastoral level.
    We are not bound to give it anymore recognition than that.

    Quote
    Joseph Ratzinger, The Ratzinger Report
     
    It is likewise impossible to decide in favor of Trent and Vatican I, but against Vatican II.  Whoever denies Vatican II denies the authority that upholds the other two councils and thereby detaches them from their foundation. And this applies to the so-called ‘traditionalism’, also in its extreme forms.
    One who gives V2 the required 'religious conditional assent' does not deny V2 nor the authority of the pope; they just realize that he did not USE his authority in the same manner as at Trent/Vatican I.  Ratzinger here tries to connect the authority of Trent/Vatican I with being equal to that of V2.  Of course, it's not, as he later admitted when he became pope.
    ----
    Overall, when these modernists make accusations about 'obedience' and 'denial of authority' what they are really referring to is not V2, but the new mass.  V2 is the constitution which attempted to change the mentality of the faithful; the novus ordo is the vehicle to get them to ACTIVELY change.  V2 is related to ideals; the new mass is putting those ideals into practice.

    It's really simple for someone to say "Hey, I accept V2 with conditional assent." and the modernists know that.  Because who can't accept the truths in V2 and say they "aren't sure" about the proposed novelties.  Anyone can do that.  And it's impossible to prove that one rejects a series of ambiguities.  

    What they are referring to, when they talk about "obedience" is the rejection of the new mass, for the acceptance/rejection is measurable, actionable, and visual.  For them, the new mass is the "fruit" of V2, so to reject the new mass is to reject V2.  Of course, in their demented logic, V2 authorized a new missal and the new missal was authorized by V2 (not the pope's authority), which is a case of SUPER SPECTACULAR circular logic, and also a novel and never-before-seen-trick-of-a-lack-of-papal-authority and it violates Quo Primum (which Benedict XVI admitted was never abrogated and still in force).

    So this explains what the modernists mean when they talk of "obedience".  They are referring to ACCEPTING the new mass, which is the culmination of their freemasonic, satanic plans to destroy the Church.  As Martin Luther said:  "If you destroy the mass, you destroy the Faith."

    Yet the modernists don't have any arguments/facts to back up their assertions (and they know it, so they resort to half-truths, emotion and misdirection) - the new mass is wrong liturgically, legally and morally.  Both V2 and the new mass are not obligatory (and in many areas have already been condemned) so we Trads can, and should, ignore them as an attack on the Faith - in all the ways in which they change, trample upon and destroy the Traditions and Truths which are mysteriously taught through the Divine Sacrifice.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #434 on: April 05, 2018, 09:50:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    Now you and Ladislaus have argued in different posts that everything in an ecuмenical council is necessarily infallible.  You have argued that the pope possess a personal never-failing faith.  You have argued that the pope is infallibly infallible when he wants to be infallible, and he is fallibly infallible when he does not want to be infallible.  All this is possible because he possess a personal Indefectiblity called "infallible security."  So you claim that the pope is not your rule of faith but rather the magisterium, but everything your pope does is infallible and the magisterium is meaningless without a pope, so, your rule of faith is the pope by default whom who tuned into a god. The pope is always infallible until you catch him making a mistake and then he is no longer the pope.  In the end, the only rule of faith you have is yourself.
    This is a very accurate summary of Ladislaus/Cantarella's arguments, and logical conclusions to which they lead.  ...If the above is wrong, now is the time to clear this up, guys.

    Secondly, even if the "pope siri" thesis were true, it can't be proven, so we can't say for sure.  Even if we allow for it to be true, that still doesn't solve your problem of WHY didn't you consider Benedict XVI a pope?  Siri was long dead before Benedict was elected, so he would be valid - unless you hold to the "hidden pope" theory where Siri's cardinals held a conclave.

    If you would just admit the above, I could understand your arguments better.  I wouldn't agree with them, but at least they wouldn't be so contradictory.  As they are now, absent the multiple thesis related to Siri, they have many logical holes.