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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 205044 times)

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Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #255 on: March 28, 2018, 06:20:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on March 27, 2018, 10:56:51 PM
    Mmmmm....Pastor Aeternus is telling us explicitly that the Pope enjoys the Divine promise of never-failing Faith.

    What does that say about the belief that all the conciliar "popes" have become heretics one after the other?

    Cantarella,

    Now you have gone back to where this started.  The Pope is you rule of faith.  I suggest that you read the thread:
    The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « on: December 31, 2017, 06:05:26 PM »

    My wife posted a few of my initial exchanges with the conservative Catholic Emmet O'Regan.  The link is provided in the post to the entire exchange. You will discover that he, like you, believes that the pope possesses a personal "never-failing faith."  Besides not being true, it leads to two ends and you and Mr. O'Regan are good examples of both. 

    Dogma is the proximate rule of faith and the only solution to this error.

    You need not reply to this. I think you are determined to follow the course you have chosen and any further discussion would be fruitless.  It is Holy Week and we will have Tenebrae each day sung in Latin this year at our chapel in York, PA, so my time is committed elsewhere.

    Drew


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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #256 on: March 28, 2018, 06:43:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on March 27, 2018, 10:56:51 PM
    Mmmmm....Pastor Aeternus is telling us explicitly that the Pope enjoys the Divine promise of never-failing Faith.

    What does that say about the belief that all the conciliar "popes" have become heretics one after the other?
    Please don't take my bluntness as me being disrespectful toward you Cantarella because that most certainly is not why I am being blunt.....

    Being bound to the magisterium as your rule of faith "implies a corresponding duty to believe whatever the successors of the Apostles teach."

    So where do you come off accusing the pope(s) of being heretics? You speak as if the popes and bishops (magisterium) are in some type of major doctrinal conflict with each other when they are not. What happened to your faith in your rule of faith?

    Do you know what it means to have faith in the rule of faith?

    Having faith means that no matter how pleasant or repugnant to you it may be, you are required to accept it. You may not accuse or put impositions on it, you may not require of it, *it requires of you* – and what it requires is your absolute submission of faith.

    This is exactly the point. I am challenging you to demonstrate where your faith really lies. By telling you that you are bound to submit to the NO bishops and popes (magisterium), I am telling you something that is repugnant to you, something that logically, no trad Catholic could stomach - but having faith consists of accepting it regardless of how it strikes us, accepting it because it is our rule of faith, which rule is foundational to our faith.

    I know the idea that the hierarchy, is the magisterium is the rule of faith, is entirely false, entirely NO, that it is a false teaching which even you and Lad have no faith in - we all know this because if you actually believed in what you say, you would have faith in it and  you would be NO. Trads have always rejected that false teaching for what it is, while embracing what the magisterium actually is and what the rule of faith actually is - lest we all be NO.





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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #257 on: March 28, 2018, 08:46:01 AM »
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    R&R claims that the Papal Magisterium has failed to realize its end of protecting the flock from error, i.e. that it has defected.
    Ladislaus,
    The magisterium cannot defect because it is the teaching AUTHORITY of the Church.  The magisterium has already SOLEMNLY declared that the ideals of V2 are errors.  Case closed.  There’s no “sifting” involved.  It’s written in black-and-white for all to see (and all must believe) and such errors have been condemned for CENTURIES.  It’s not complicated.  V2 fallibly taught infallibly condemned errors.  Infallible teaching > fallible “teaching”.  A 6yr old can understand this.  

    Secondly, V2 DID NOT teach with doctrinal authority, nor did they bind anyone to believe its errors UNDER PAIN OF SIN.  If there is no obligation to believe under pain of sin, then it’s not a matter of salvation.  Therefore, we are OBLIGATED to reject these novelties which are PREVIOUSLY AND DOGMATICALLY AND INFALLIBLY CONDEMNED.  We are obligated to reject V2 or else we go to hell.  

    The fact that you cannot distinguish between the fallible and infallible nature of the pope’s teaching authority, nor do you accept the simple understanding of the word ‘fallible’ is astounding.  And it shows that you are defending a preconceived conclusion instead of following the facts.  

    (For the record, I do believe that the sedeprivationist theory is possible, not because of this “proximate rule” debate but for other reasons.  So don’t broad-brush people with your personal “R&R” definition.  There are many different perspectives.)
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #258 on: March 28, 2018, 09:17:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2018, 08:19:37 AM
    R&R DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS THE TEACHING OF VATICAN I.

    Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus IV.7

    Quote
    This gift of truth and never-failing faith was therefore divinely conferred on Peter and his successors in this See so that they might discharge their exalted office for the salvation of all, and so that the whole flock of Christ might be kept away by them from the poisonous food of error and be nourished with the sustenance of heavenly doctrine.

    It cannot happen that Catholics in submission to the Papal Magisterium could jeopardize their salvation and ingest the "poisonous food of error" ... as R&R claims has happened.  This right here is all the theological proof you need for the teaching of "infallible safety" ... which Drew dismisses as pure speculation.  It's TAUGHT DIRECTLY by Vatican I.
    Pitiful bit of theological wizardry you attempt there Lad. Study the prior bullet point IV.6, in order to find out what this gift of never failing faith is. Study it until you fully understand and comprehend it. After you accomplish this, then apply the correct understanding to 7.

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #259 on: March 28, 2018, 11:07:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2018, 09:21:00 AM
    :laugh1:

    Unbelievable.  I simply quote Vatican I and that's referred to as a "pitiful ... theological wizardry".  You guys are a joke, and it might even be funny if you weren't promoting heresy.
    LOL

    I was talking about your ridiculous commentary, not the clear teaching you chose to mangle. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #260 on: March 28, 2018, 11:10:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2018, 09:23:35 AM
    Imbecile, it defines it right there in the text I quoted.  Never-failing faith has the effect of making sure that in the discharge of his teaching office the pope cannot introduce the poison of error to the flock ... and that the teaching office will be conducive to the salvation of the faithful (rather than militated against it .. as you heretics claim).

    I'm taking off the gloves here.  You guys are without a question HERETICS.

    In fact, as St. Thomas teaches that, once you've rejected the Magisterium as your rule of faith, you cannot have supernatural faith anymore --


    This some other principle always ultimately reduces to your own private judgment.
    Brainiac, you don't understand what Never failing faith is. Take the gloves and slip them over your head already, then go submit to your idea of the magisterium, show us the faith you have in that for a change.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #261 on: March 28, 2018, 11:25:06 AM »
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    • Quote
    WRONG.  Most of the errors people call out in Vatican II were condemend in docuмents of the ORDINARY PAPAL MAGISTERIUM that had far less authority than an Ecuмenical Council does.
    No, you're wrong.  V2's errors may have been condemned through the ordinary magisterium but they were also condemned solemnly.  How many times have anti-EENS ideals been condemned?  Multiple.  Has V2's false ecuмenism been condemned solemnly?  Yes, council of florence, I believe.  And religious liberty?  Yes, already been condemned (but I don't remember the council).

    Even the novus ordo's 'consecration of the wine' translation has been condemened solemnly.  So, there's that too.

    The reasons people bought into V2 was because of 1) false obedience, 2) the argument that these errors were not errors, but simply an "update for the times", and 3) a willingness to make catholicism "easier".  Many, many catholics of this time WANTED the changes.

    Any catholic with a brain at the time knew V2 had errors which had already been condemned.  Those that loved the Faith, started traditionalism.  Those that wanted to walk the 'wide and easy path' did so, and they placated their conscience by telling themselves they were 'obedient'.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #262 on: March 28, 2018, 12:01:26 PM »
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    But you're claiming, then, that it's possible for an Ecuмenical Council to teach HERESY to the Universal Church?  That's taking it to a new level.
    V2 did not make use of its SOLEMN infallible magisterium, therefore its docuмents fall under the fallible ordinary magisterium.  Your problem is that you refuse to admit that 'fallible' means 'able to err'.

    You also erroneously treat a SOLEMN infallible Teaching (capital 'T') as being on the same level as a teaching (lowercase 't') from the fallible, ordinary magisterium, which teachings do not carry the same doctrinal weight. 
    - SOLEMN teachings have a 'certainty of faith'; teachings from the ordinary magisterium do not. 
    - SOLEMN teachings are binding 'under pain of sin'; ordinary, fallible teachings do not. 
    - SOLEMN teachings MUST be belived, no ifs, ands or buts.  Ordinary teachings require a conditional assent, presuming error is possible.

    Your refusal to admit these distinctions is alarming.  You can agree to the above and still be a sedeprivationist.  Why you fight this makes no sense.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #263 on: March 28, 2018, 01:24:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: drew on March 28, 2018, 06:20:09 AM
    Cantarella,

    Now you have gone back to where this started.  The Pope is you rule of faith.  I suggest that you read the thread:
    The Heretical Pope Fallacy
    « on: December 31, 2017, 06:05:26 PM »

    My wife posted a few of my initial exchanges with the conservative Catholic Emmet O'Regan.  The link is provided in the post to the entire exchange. You will discover that he, like you, believes that the pope possesses a personal "never-failing faith."  Besides not being true, it leads to two ends and you and Mr. O'Regan are good examples of both.  

    Dogma is the proximate rule of faith and the only solution to this error.

    You need not reply to this. I think you are determined to follow the course you have chosen and any further discussion would be fruitless.  It is Holy Week and we will have Tenebrae each day sung in Latin this year at our chapel in York, PA, so my time is committed elsewhere.

    Drew

    Seems to me Ladislaus is trying to bury any replies from his oponents he doesn't have an answer for (except insults, of course). I think the replies on the above link are well worth the read. All the replies should be in the link below.

    http://unveilingtheapocalypse.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-heretical-pope-fallacy.html
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #264 on: March 28, 2018, 01:26:23 PM »
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    • Matthew's problem is that he doesn't know when to shut a topic down.  He let's a thread about Fr. Ringrose descend into a food fight between CI members who wind up calling one another morons and heretics. Many other CI topics have fizzled out similarly. What could possible be Matt's motive in allowing this nonsense to continue?  Yet he does it time after time.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #265 on: March 28, 2018, 01:35:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 28, 2018, 06:43:21 AM
    Please don't take my bluntness as me being disrespectful toward you Cantarella because that most certainly is not why I am being blunt.....

    Being bound to the magisterium as your rule of faith "implies a corresponding duty to believe whatever the successors of the Apostles teach."

    So where do you come off accusing the pope(s) of being heretics? You speak as if the popes and bishops (magisterium) are in some type of major doctrinal conflict with each other when they are not. What happened to your faith in your rule of faith?

    Do you know what it means to have faith in the rule of faith?

    Having faith means that no matter how pleasant or repugnant to you it may be, you are required to accept it. You may not accuse or put impositions on it, you may not require of it, *it requires of you* – and what it requires is your absolute submission of faith.

    This is exactly the point. I am challenging you to demonstrate where your faith really lies. By telling you that you are bound to submit to the NO bishops and popes (magisterium), I am telling you something that is repugnant to you, something that logically, no trad Catholic could stomach - but having faith consists of accepting it regardless of how it strikes us, accepting it because it is our rule of faith, which rule is foundational to our faith.

    I know the idea that the hierarchy, is the magisterium is the rule of faith, is entirely false, entirely NO, that it is a false teaching which even you and Lad have no faith in - we all know this because if you actually believed in what you say, you would have faith in it and  you would be NO. Trads have always rejected that false teaching for what it is, while embracing what the magisterium actually is and what the rule of faith actually is - lest we all be NO.

    ^^^This.
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    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #266 on: March 28, 2018, 01:36:22 PM »
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    • Bellator,
    As has been mentioned multiple times before, you make the same error that Ladislaus does, in that you refuse to admit that the ordinary magisterium can be infallible and fallible, depending on the wording and authority they use in their teachings.

    Many theologians say that Humae Vitae was an example of the ordinary/universal magisterium because the teaching was 1) clear, 2) authoritative and 3) proposed as a UNIVERSAL teaching, meaning it was shown to agree with Tradition.  Humae Vitae intended and made it clear that its teaching was binding and had to be believed.

    V2 was not clear, not authoritative and is not universal, because its novelties (which the authors admit were novelties) do not agree with Tradition.  Therefore it's a fallible teaching.  V2 was not clear nor did it say it was binding anyone under pain of sin.

    Vatican 1 was not referring to V2's type of teaching but to the clear, authoritative and universal teaching like in Humae Vitae.  The differences between the two are striking.  Language and intent is IMPORTANT!
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #267 on: March 28, 2018, 02:10:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2018, 11:40:56 AM
    Get lost, heretic.  You're also one of the biggest idiots I've ever encountered online ... without the ability to grasp simple logic or even basic English.  By itself, it's no big deal ... since not everyone has received the gift of intelligence from God.  But combined with your incredible hubris, where you THINK you know better than the Church on everything, and only your interpretation of dogma is in fact the exact dogma "as it is written" ... that combination of stupidity and arrogance are incredibly repugnant to both God and man.
    Let's be straight here. You lie, not me. You're the educated one whose been brainwashed, not me. You're the one with no faith in your own heretical idea of what the magisterium even is, not me. I could go on, but you'll have to find out the hard way. Sad, but that's usually the way it works when you have no faith. I will keep you in my prayers.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #268 on: March 28, 2018, 02:24:00 PM »
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    • Self-moderating is always a possibility: Profile>Modify Profile>Buddie/Ignore List>Edit Ignore List  - Enter member name in text box and click Add button.  This works fairly well even if you are not a terribly self-disciplined character.  You will still see the heading of the posts of this member but not the content.  There is a link if you really want to see the content.  But don't click it.  Just trust that there was a good reason that you went to the trouble of putting this member on the ignore list.  Serenity now!
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #269 on: March 28, 2018, 02:26:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bellator Dei on March 28, 2018, 12:07:35 PM
    You contradict the teaching of Vatican I, Pax....


    Quote
    Vatican I

    Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or IN her ordinary and universal magisterium
    I think you put the accent on the wrong word BD. I think you should have put the accent on the word "in".

    In Tuas Libenter, Pope Pius IX defines those things which are contained IN the magisterium as: "All that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."

    By this definition of both Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, both are infallible.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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