Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 47561 times)

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Offline Croix de Fer

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2018, 10:06:08 AM »
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  • I am honestly in disbelief that we have Catholics here who have no concept about the Catholic Magisterium ... and who seem to follow a religion that's closer to both Protestantism and schismatic Orthodoxy than it is to Catholicism. 
    Yeah, a lot of them are "dogmatic" sedes who are converts from Protestantism, too. A bunch of them on Facebook issuing their "bulls" and "encyclicals" to everyone. :laugh1: They act like some Catholic theologian after having converted from being a Protty or secularism only 3 years ago. Some of them haven't even had Confirmation, and others are home-aloner schizoids, despite a valid Tridentine Latin or eastern rite Mass available to them, but they think they can school everyone on the Catholic Faith.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #91 on: March 13, 2018, 10:14:19 AM »
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    DOGMA + MAGISTERIUM = object of supernatural faith
    Agree.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #92 on: March 13, 2018, 12:00:13 PM »
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  • Can the magisterium issue NEW teachings of the Faith?
    Can the magisterium change articles of Faith?
    Can the magisterium get rid of articles of Faith?

    The answer to this is 'no' because EVERY article of Faith that we are required to hold now, is the same that was required of the Apostles and of 1st century christians, either explicitly or implicitly.  Therefore, when you argue that the magisterium is 'always reliably safe' or something along those lines, you are indirectly giving them freedom to add/subtract from the Faith, which freedom they do not have - because the FAITH CANNOT CHANGE.  The Faith came before the Church, since the Faith existed (imperfectly) in the Old Testament.  As Christ said "I came not to destroy but to fulfill." 

    As Christ warned us 'beware of wolves in sheep's clothing."  Who would He be warning us about, except the hierarchy?  Why did St Paul need to rebuke St Peter, if the magisterium is always 'safe'? 

    When one says that 'dogma is the rule of faith', the way I understand it is that dogma refers to 1) articles of faith and 2) infallible declarations by previous magisteriums.  Therefore, dogma covers all REQUIRED beliefs. 

    If the current pope/magisterium fallibly contradicts an article of faith or previous infallible statement (yes, it can happen), then they are anathema, as St Paul told us.  There's no other way to understand it and this view is completely Catholic. 

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #93 on: March 13, 2018, 12:03:44 PM »
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    If the Magisterium, attempting to act Infallibly, could endanger faith, lead souls to hell, or even just cause them harm, it would have defected.  
    Fixed your comment above. 

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #94 on: March 13, 2018, 12:05:01 PM »
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    Catholicism 103:  The Pope is the principle and center, of the unity of faith.
    True, but he's not the author of the articles of faith, he's just the guardian of it...if he stays orthodox.


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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #95 on: March 13, 2018, 12:08:30 PM »
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    Catholicism 102:  Church's lawful Rite of Mass cannot be harmful and is guaranteed to please God because Christ gave it to us.

    Fixed the above.  Not specific enough.
    The novus ordo is not a lawful rite and is essentially different from the True Mass, therefore it's not from the Church and is not protected by indefectibility.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #96 on: March 13, 2018, 12:31:04 PM »
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  • Lawfullness and validity are completely separate issues.  I'm not going to go into the novus ordo's illegality...that's been covered before.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #97 on: March 13, 2018, 01:15:44 PM »
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  • So, Bellator, according to your logic, the pope can change the words of consecration?  He can change what Christ instituted?


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #98 on: March 13, 2018, 01:20:36 PM »
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    If the Magisterium could endanger faith, lead souls to hell, or even just cause them harm, it would have defected.  
    Ladislaus and Cantarella,
    If you believe the above, then how can you believe in Fr Chazal's explanation of sedeprivationism?  If you believe the magisterium/pope cannot defect, then how can you believe he is in heresy and has lost his spiritual office? 
    To me, Fr Chazal's viewpoint where the pope loses his spiritual office when he loses his faith, is proof that the magisterium can defect.  Because the defection from the truth was not official, then such a defection is not of the Church, but just of the churchmen.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #99 on: March 13, 2018, 01:25:06 PM »
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    No, the entire point is that these men do NOT exercise Magisterium.
    Yes, but since when?  At what point did +Francis lose his spiritual office?  Was the Synod not an exercise of the magisterium?

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #100 on: March 13, 2018, 01:43:42 PM »
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  • What about Pope Paul VI?  He was not exercising his magisterium at V2?  I don't think he was, i'm curious as to your view.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #101 on: March 13, 2018, 04:23:14 PM »
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    Unlikely.
    Ok, but why is it unlikely?

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #102 on: March 13, 2018, 06:57:53 PM »
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  • No, because as it was defined in Vatican I Council, everything that the Magisterium proposes for belief as being divinely revealed MUST necessarily be derived from the Deposit of Faith, which consists of both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. There can be no novelties added to it, nor contradictions. The Magisterium consists of only all the infallible teachings of the Church.

    Dogmas cannot change. They do not "evolve" either or are subject to further interpretation. This is true. It is also true however, that the Magisterium of the Church cannot contradict itself; but apparently it did, on December 7 of 1965, according to the Cassiciacum Thesis.

    What is your intent by this post? I have been defending the immutability of Catholic dogma a lot longer than you. It was you who used the term “living magisterium” and called it the “rule of faith.”  I reminded you where the term came from, Fr. Bainville, and why and how this early modernist used the term, that is, to ultimately destroy the immutability of the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. The term in fact is the distinguishing quality of Neo-modernism that posits a disjunction between dogma and its verbal expression.  It looks to the "living magisterium" to direct the progression of dogma from one meaning to another under the pretext of a deeper understanding.

    I hope you never err by saying again, “the living magisterium is the rule of faith.”  

    Drew

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #103 on: March 13, 2018, 07:53:59 PM »
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  • DOGMA + MAGISTERIUM = object of supernatural faith

    The equal sign (=) in mathematics is used to indicate a quantitative identity.  What you have posted is not an identity and further muddies the issue.  When we had this exchange before on the rule of faith, you erroneously claimed that the Magisterium stood outside of divine revelation so that it could act as judge of divine revelation.  The Magisterium is not outside of, but is an integral part of divine revelation.  If anything, the term "living magisterium" functions as if it were an independent arbiter of divine revelation.

    The objects of supernatural faith are, without exception, divine revelation. Supernatural faith is believing what God has revealed on the authority of God.  Divine revelation is the one and only rule of faith.

    God's revelation is contained in Scripture and Tradition. This revelation is called the "formal object of divine faith" and constitutes the remote rule of faith.
    Dogma is the Church formally defining an object of divine faith. This act of defining is possible because God has endowed His Church with powers that permit her to fulfill her obligations. Her obligations are three: to teach, to sanctify and to govern. The powers to fulfill these obligations are the "attributes" of the Church. They are attributes of God primarily and necessarily, and they are only attributes of the Church because the Church is a divine institution. These attributes (powers) are: Infallibility, Indefectibility, and Authority and these powers directly correspond with the obligations to teach, to sanctify and to govern that God has delegated to His Church.

    The power of infallibility belongs to the Church and we know this through and only through divine revelation. Designated Churchmen can engage this power to teach in the name of God without the possibility of error, "He who heareth you, heareth Me." This teaching office is called the Magisterium and specific criteria necessary for Churchmen to engage this divine power has been dogmatically defined. It is one, and unfailingly teaches without the possibility of error because it is God who is the teacher.

    The Magisterium is part of divine revelation. When the Magisterium is engaged, Churchmen can in the name of God define a doctrine of divine revelation in a formal sense. This defined doctrine is then called a Dogma and it is then referred to as the "formal object of divine and Catholic faith" and, as part of divine revelation, it constitutes the proximate rule of faith.

    The Magisterium is one of our Dogmas. In this sense it is "object of supernatural faith" like all divine revelation.

    If it were expressed in a mathematical formula, it would be more accurate to say:
    Objects of Supernatural Faith = All Divine Revelation
    All Divine Revelation = Scripture + Tradition + Dogmas
    Objects of Supernatural Faith = Scripture + Tradition + Dogmas
    The Magisterium is part of divine revelation that is, a defined doctrine, and thus, a Dogma and is grounded upon the Church's attribute of Infallibility.

    Those who do not follow Dogma as their proximate rule of faith cannot avoid such errors as sedeprivationism that drives a wedge between the form and the matter of the papal office thus necessarily causing a substantial change that destroys the office, or sedevacantism that simply throws it away.

    Drew

    Offline drew

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    Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
    « Reply #104 on: March 13, 2018, 08:09:00 PM »
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  • Catholicism 101: Ecumenical Councils approved by a Pope are infallible.

    This is a gross over generalization.  Ecumenical Councils approved by a Pope CAN BE infallible, or rather, can issue infallible decrees.  They have the capacity to engage the Church's attribute of Infallibility and teach doctrinal truth without the possibility of error.  Only the Dogmatic definitions from ecumenical councils, such as from the Council of Trent, have this attribute of Infallibility. Councils have historically done a lot more than define doctrine although this, until Vatican II, has always been their primary purpose. It is because Vatican II purposefully refused to define any doctrine that Canon Gregory Hesse speculated that it may not for that reason be a true ecumenical council.

    Drew

     

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