Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd? (Read 442512 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #900 on:** May 02, 2018, 11:36:04 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on May 02, 2018, 11:11:02 AM

Someone posted this on another thread, from John of St. Thomas (pre Vatican I theologian).

Paying attention, Drew?

Pre-Vatican I theologian, Stubborn.

drew · « **Reply #901 on:** May 02, 2018, 01:06:45 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on May 02, 2018, 08:40:42 AM

Unbelievable. Luther promoted dogma as the rule of faith. Only difference between him and you is that he only held that there was one source of Revelation instead of the two you believe in. You are also a heretic for asserting that the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church can corrupt the faith and endanger souls. [see the video from Archbishop Lefebvre below]

So when there's no pope after one dies and before another one is elected (in the past this has sometimes gone on for years), there's no Church anymore?

Ladislaus,

You have at least one thing right in this post, “Unbelievable.” Another of your posts without offering any evidence or reasoned arguments. But one thing that it is not missing it your characteristic corruption of definitions.

Luther could not have held “dogma as the rule of faith” because Dogma is the fruit of the Magisterium. The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church grounded upon its divine Attributes of Infallibility and Authority. Since it teaches by virtue of divine Attributes, the teaching is always infallibly true. Luther rejected the pope, the papal office, the Magisterum, and the authority of all councils. Luther’s rule of faith was “sola scriptura” interpreted by each individual. Since Luther rejected the means by which Dogma is produced, he could not possibly have held dogma as his rule of faith.

Luther’s church shares many essential qualities of your own. You hold the “magisterium as your rule of faith,” but believe that your magisterium is “dormant.” Unfortunately, it is not “dormant,” but dead because the means to engage the Magisterium have been destroyed. Sedeprivationism removes the pope from office by destroying the office. You have no pope, no magisterium, to rule of faith so you, like Luther, are stuck with “Sola Ladislaus.”

It is only possible to believe that the “Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church can corrupt the faith and endanger souls” if you do not know what the Magisterium is and you do not know what is meant by “universal discipline.” The Magisterium is always and everywhere infallibly true and those who keep dogma, the fruit of the Magisterium, as their rule of faith will never be deceived. As for “universal discipline,” you make two common mistakes. The first is that you typically eliminate the necessary attribute of time the definition of “universal” which totally corrupts its meaning. The second mistake is your belief in the myth of “mere ecclesiastical faith” which regards immemorial customs as matters of mere discipline rather than necessary attributes of the faith by which it can be known and communicated to others.

Lastly, it is a dogma, a formal object of divine and Catholic faith that the papacy will endure with perpetual successors until the consummation of the world. Your claim that your magisterium is “dormant” because you have no pope. I am telling you that it is dead because you have no material or instrumental means to ever get one. Your church, like Luther’s, is not the Catholic Church.

Drew

drew · « **Reply #902 on:** May 02, 2018, 02:02:31 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella on May 02, 2018, 11:47:17 AM

Nothing new here. This was already addressed. I understand that you, just as Jimmy Akins from Catholic Answers, as well as the pro-Luther "Catholics" of today, believe that Exsurge Domine is only "partially" true. And the only reason you are willing to go this far is because one of the condemned errors of Martin Luther by Pope Leo X specifically applies to you, as anyone with honest integrity can see. Otherwise, you would not be questioning the veracity of this renowned Papal Bull which makes part of the Infallible Magisterium of the Church.

If you think that my belief that Ecunemical Councils represent the Universal Church (and therefore, have the assistance of the Holy Ghost which prevents them from teaching errors, and require absolute obedience), is solely based on Exsurge Domine, you are quite mistaken, though. I have already provided many other ecclesiastical sources throughout this thread supporting this dogmatic truth. I can defend it without Exsurge Domine.

Cantarella,

It is Pope Leo X, the author of Exsurge Domine, who says that the articles against Luther have variable levels of authority from rank heresy to offensive to pious ears.

What “dogmatic truth” are you defending? Article #29 refers to all councils without distinction. Are you claiming that it is a “dogma” that all councils at all levels are beyond criticism in all their decisions?

You should worry more about your own error rather than the problems of others. You are in a church that has no pope, no magisterium, no councils, no dogma and no means to ever correct these gross defects. The church you are in cannot be the Catholic Church because it lacks necessary attributes that make the Catholic Church what she is. These defects in your church are shared by Lutherans.

Drew

Theosist · « **Reply #903 on:** May 02, 2018, 03:30:12 PM »

Quote

Are you claiming that it is a “dogma” that all councils at all levels are beyond criticism in all their decisions?

Blah, blah, straw man.

Condemnations by popes or general councils of propositions pertaining to faith or morals are in principle themselves teachings on faith or morals to be held by the whole Church. They are therefore exercises in infallibility. So with all of Exsurge Domine’s condemned propositions.

Spare us the argument about Honorius you were about to parrot. Anathematisation of a particular person as a heretic is not the same thing as a condemnation of an idea itself or exercise in this kind of infallibility (though binding, my dear Jansenists) because the Church is not given the power to determine without fail what a person’s actual beliefs are. Of course such judgments can be overturned - not because of “context” or “non-universal truth” or an lifting of the condemnation of an idea, but because they are essentially fallible juridical decisions.

And I’ll say it again: any condemnation as false of an idea by Exsurge Domine, if true at that time and place, is true today and here and will forever be true everywhere. That’s not a matter of Catholic doctrine but an analytic a priori truth of immutable logic.

Next please.

drew · « **Reply #904 on:** May 02, 2018, 03:32:38 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on May 02, 2018, 01:24:01 PM

OK, Drew, let's contrast my Church and yours.

My Church: sometimes there's no actively reigning pope, such as when one dies and before another one is elected
Your Church: there's always a pope, at every moment and instant of history, and this pope could teach all manner of heresies, endanger souls, and lead people to hell.

I'll take "My" Church over YOURS any day.

Ladislaus,

Good post. Now everyone knows that you and I are not in the same church. As you say, your church has “no actively reigning pope” but don’t think of this as an interregnum. Your church has no intention of ever getting a pope because it does not have the material or instrumental means to ever correct the defect. Sedeprivationism destroys the office. You have no chair to sit on.

It is a dogma of the Catholic Church, that is, an article of divine and Catholic faith, that the Catholic Church will keep the papal office intact and occupied with perpetual successors until the consummation of the world. God has promised that we would always have a pope. He did not promise that these popes would be faithful.

My Church is the Catholic Church where there is a heretical pope, but, God, true to His promise, has prevented over the last sixty years heretical popes from engaging the Magisterium of the Church to bind doctrinal and/or moral errors on the faithful. These heretical popes will, as you say, “lead people to hell” but only those people who make the pope their rule of faith. Those who keep dogma as their rule of faith will have no problem keeping on the right road to salvation. As Jesus said, “Take heed lest any man deceive you….. Go ye therefore not after them.”

Drew

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd? (Read 442512 times)

Stubborn

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?

drew

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?

drew

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?

Theosist

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drew

Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?