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Author Topic: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?  (Read 442698 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #705 on: April 20, 2018, 12:30:29 PM »
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Why should I have to go through such exhausting mental gymnastics to realize what is evident?
It's not mental gymnastics, it's a matter of law.  To enact, revise or revoke a law requires a PROCESS and one that cannot be done willy-nilly, haphazardly, etc.  Law is very precise and must be.

Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean anything.  First, are you trained to understand it?  Second, do you have the patience/personality to WANT to understand it?  I would say 'no' to both for you.  (and I don't mean that as a criticism).  Many people might have the WANT, but not the training to read legal docuмents and to read the legal interpretation of what they mean.  I'm not a lawyer but i've had some legal-related jobs.  I'm not an expert at all, but my point is, if you're not used to reading legal docuмents, it will seem like a different language (which it is). 

If you want to learn legal stuff, and become self-taught, then go for it.  But describing legal details as "mental gymnastics" is wrong.  I mean, if I try to read the Church Fathers interpretation of Scripture, where they talk about Greek and Hebrew meanings and tranlsations, wouldn't it be wrong, impatient, and stupid for me to say "well, they're just being too detailed and full of themselves when they talk about this or that meaning, or singular vs plural.  Just give us a translation and be done with it."  That would be a very rash and impatient response.  THE MEANING OF LANGUAGE MATTERS, especially in law!

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The Novus Ordo Mass is an invalid rite, not because it did not come from the "Infallible Magisterium" or because the wording "all vs. many" or the priest facing the people, nor the altar girls or the immodest women at the rail; but for the simple reason that the ONLY person on earth with the power of introducing and approving new rites for the Church, this is, the Sovereign Pontiff, was an illegitimate impostor.

He was a false Pope.
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I suspect it because of the Magisterial contradiction in the setting of an Ecunemical Council. Mainly in the docuмents Lumen Gentium, Nostra Aetate; and Dignitatis Humanae.
Ok, so you're saying Paul VI was a false pope because V2 contradicts Tradition, right?  But WHEN did he become a false pope?  Before or after the council?
Your statement above indicates that you say he was an imposter BECAUSE OF the council, which means he was validly elected and a valid pope AT THE START OF the council?  Yes?

Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #706 on: April 20, 2018, 01:00:41 PM »
This must be the silliest argument I have heard for a while. Hopefully, those who are not participating in this thread realize the extent that R&R must go in order to support their nonsense.
I am starting to wonder, Mr. Drew, if you are actually responding to ME in this thread or just copying and pasting from other articles you write, which are actually quite irrelevant to my replies.

In the previous post, I used the exact wording posted by Fr. Kramer. Posted by YOU:

My question:

What makes Mr. Kramer and you think that the Pope of Rome falls into the rank of "any ecclesiastical pastor"?

Cantarella,

Corrupting a translation, or using a corrupted translation, of a dogma (or for that matter, any papal docuмent) is a grave sin and canonical crime which carries a penalty of excommunication.  You have used a translation that serious Catholics have been addressing for more than 40 years because the corruption destroys the meaning of God's revealed truth.  You are the first I have ever heard characterize this crime as "one of the silliest arguments I have heard in a long time." I am very pleased to have the comments of Fr. Gregory Hesse explaining the implications of your error to others, but his explanation is unfortunately lost on you. 
 
Fr. Hesse also addressed the question you have concerning the pope being an "ecclesiastical pastor." But since he did not convince you, a simple method is to examine the Magisterial docuмent Pastor Aeternus (Eternal Pastor) from Vatican I. The word "pastor" derives from the Latin noun pastor which means "shepherd" and relates to the Latin verb pascere – "to lead to pasture, set to grazing, cause to eat". The term "pastor" also relates to the role of elder within the New Testament (Wiki). The very charge to St. Peter from Jesus Christ to, "feed My lambs, feed My sheep," means 'to pastor' His flock.  The metaphor of the Good Shepherd is intended to give the same teaching. The word, "ecclesiastical" is the adjective of ecclesia which means "Church".
 
You are denying that the pope is an "ecclesiastical pastor." He is so be definition. In fact, if the pope were not an "ecclesiastical pastor", He could not be the chief "ecclesiastical pastor" of the entire Church. Vatican I, in the Magisterial docuмent, Pastor Aeternus, uses the term "pastor" to refer specifically to the pope.
 
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And it was to Peter alone that Jesus, after his resurrection, confided the jurisdiction of Supreme Pastor and ruler of his whole fold, saying: "Feed my lambs, feed my sheep".
Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus

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This power of the Supreme Pontiff by no means detracts from that ordinary and immediate power of episcopal jurisdiction, by which bishops, who have succeeded to the place of the apostles by appointment of the Holy Spirit, tend and govern individually the particular flocks which have been assigned to them. On the contrary, this power of theirs is asserted, supported and defended by the Supreme and Universal Pastor; for St. Gregory the Great says: "My honor is the honor of the whole Church. My honor is the steadfast strength of my brethren. Then do I receive true honor, when it is denied to none of those to whom honor is due."
Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus

So if you want to know "what makes me think that the pope in Rome falls into the rank of 'any ecclesiastical pastor'", it is the declarations from the Magisteriuim of the Church.  And if you want to know "who makes me think that the pope in Rome falls into the rank of 'any ecclesiastical pastor'", it is God.
 
Drew


Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #707 on: April 20, 2018, 02:08:04 PM »
The Tridentine Catechism makes mention of the existence of "many solemn rites and ceremonies" used in the Sacrifice of the Mass, none of which should be deemed useless or superfluous.

If Paul VI was indeed Pope, you are not allowed to condemn his Novus Ordo rite without falling into Anathema.

Cantarella,

If you read the address given by Pope Paul VI when he announced the Novus Ordo you will see that he dates the liturgical development to the  Pian Commission which began in 1948 under secretary Annibale Bugnini. Paul VI specifically says that the Novus Ordo has its roots in the 1955 changes to Holy Week. What also may be of interest to you to learn is that Bugnini in his book published in 1990, The Reform of the Liturgy 1948 to 1976, says that the first principles of liturgical reform were adopted by the Pian Commission from the very beginning, never changed, and were consistently applied throughout his tenure.
 
Any traditional Catholic association using any Roman Missal published after 1955 is using a Bugnini transitional Missal.  The current common usage of the 1962 Indult Missal that is in common usage, is in fact a Bugnini transitional Missal.  When Bugnini was asked in 1962 (the mid-point of his liturgical leadership) if that version of the Missal was his last, he replied:
 

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“Not by any stretch of the imagination. Every good builder begins by removing the gross accretions, the evident distortions; then with more delicacy and attention he sets out to revise particulars.  The latter remains to be achieved for the Liturgy so that the fullness, dignity and harmony may shine forth once again.”
The Organic Development of the Liturgy by Fr. Alcuin Reid

There were several versions of transitional Missals between 1962 and the publication of the Novus Ordo, all of which were approved by Paul VI before the final Novus Ordo. The 1962 Missal had all the "gross accretions, the evident distortions" of the immemorial "received and approved" Roman rite of Mass removed by Bugnini, and this continued right up to 1969 with hardly a month passing by without some new corruption being imposed. In fact, except for the three additional canons, there was very little "new" about the Novus Ordo in 1969 that had not already been implemented.
 
Not only is it a dogma that the "received and approved" rites may not be changed by "any pastor of the churches whomsoever," it is also required from the Council of Florence that every pastor offer the Mass according to the "custom" of his rite. The acceptance of the "received and approved" rite was incorporated into the Tridentine Profession of Faith.  It is a dogma, a formal object of divine and Catholic faith.
 
Since you hold the pope as your rule of faith and believe that liturgical worship is a matter of mere Church discipline, then you have no doctrinal or moral ground to reject his form of worship. I hold dogma as the rule of faith and keep to the "received and approved" rites of the Catholic Church. I formally reject the notion that the immemorial ecclesiastical traditions of the Church are matters of mere discipline but are necessary attributes of the faith by which it can be known and communicated to others. I also hold to the Catholic moral principle that no human authority has the power to impose anything injurious to the faith, and that every Catholic is morally required to reject anything that is injurious to the faith. Furthermore, I have submitted this Rome as is my right as a baptized Catholic for a formal definitive Magisterial judgment which I am morally bound to do.

None of this requires getting rid of the pope which leads only to greater error, formal heresy, and ultimately despair.
 
Drew

Offline drew

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #708 on: April 20, 2018, 02:31:01 PM »
I guess we can both agree that the canon in Latin is the most accurate, so here it is:




"Aut in novus alios per quencuмque ecclesiarum pastorem mutari posse".

"To be changed by any pastor of the Churches".

You are drowning in a glass of water because regardless of the English translation that is used, every pastor, any pastor, a pastor....Trent is not referring to the Pope of Rome!. The Roman Pontiff does not fall into this condition. The Pope alone as a Vicar of Christ on earth can approve and introduce new ecclesiastical rites as he has done in the past. Also, Paul VI didn't make ANY changes to the "approved and received" Tridentine Rite. He promulgated a new order of Mass, a new Rite.

You are really going to excruciating efforts to defend what is indefensible. And really, you got nothing but your personal deductions.

Cantarella,

I am reposting Canon Gregory Hesse's video at the time (19:10) that he directly answers and corrects your error. You only need to listen for a couple of minutes. It won't hurt.

https://youtu.be/2gPX7XEBdUQ?t=1148

Since you hold Dogma in such contempt that its literal meaning can be wholly disregarded, you will have no one but yourself to blame for the consequences, and I am telling you that it is a matter of eternal salvation. You will also have to account for the error in which you may have influenced others. Dogma is the proximate rule of faith and serves as a "landmark" for Catholics trying to keep the faith in troubled times.  "Thou shalt not take nor remove thy neighbour's landmark, which thy predecessors have set in thy possession which the Lord thy God will give thee in the land that thou shalt receive to possess". (Deuteronomy 19:14) And again, "Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmarks: and all the people shall say: Amen" (Deuteronomy 17:17)

Lastly, your statement, "The Pope alone as a Vicar of Christ on earth can approve and introduce new ecclesiastical rites as he has done in the past," is pure make believe.  There is not a single example in all of Church history of a pope "introduce(ing) new ecclesiastical rites."

Drew

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is Father Ringrose dumping the R & R crowd?
« Reply #709 on: April 20, 2018, 02:38:20 PM »
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The Tridentine Catechism makes mention of the existence of "many solemn rites and ceremonies" used in the Sacrifice of the Mass, none of which should be deemed useless or superfluous.

If Paul VI was indeed Pope, you are not allowed to condemn his Novus Ordo rite without falling into Anathema.
Quo Primum was made a law AFTER the council of Trent.  The only rites and ceremonies allowed AFTER Quo Primum are 1) those rites 200+ years old as of 1570ish, 2) Tridentine rite.  That's it.

Since the law hasn't changed, then as of today, the only 2 categories of masses/rites are the 2 above.  Paul VI can create a new rite all he wants, but it is illegal to use it.