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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: SoldierOfChrist on May 04, 2014, 10:16:30 PM

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on May 04, 2014, 10:16:30 PM

Is SSPX in schism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitQdPJIDLc)

I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Azul on May 04, 2014, 10:52:24 PM

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Is SSPX in schism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitQdPJIDLc)

I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?

There are many Society priests who must travel extensively on a circuit every week. I have been a faithful of the Society for decades and I have seen young priests turn grey almost overnight from the demands of being one of the few truly Catholic priests available to offer Mass and give the sacraments to the faithful who are spread all over the world.

Also the message of Fatima is widely promoted by our Society priests. We are encouraged to pray the rosary, do our duty of state and pray for the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. This has been a constant exhortation from the SSPX from the beginning.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on May 04, 2014, 11:47:27 PM

Quote from: Azul

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Is SSPX in schism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitQdPJIDLc)

I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?

There are many Society priests who must travel extensively on a circuit every week. I have been a faithful of the Society for decades and I have seen young priests turn grey almost overnight from the demands of being one of the few truly Catholic priests available to offer Mass and give the sacraments to the faithful who are spread all over the world.

Also the message of Fatima is widely promoted by our Society priests. We are encouraged to pray the rosary, do our duty of state and pray for the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. This has been a constant exhortation from the SSPX from the beginning.

Yes, I'm aware that many of our priests have to travel on a circuit every week, but do any of them board flights on a regular basis as part of that circuit?

Regarding the message of Fatima, I'm interested in what is being taught now about it.  Are the faithful merely told to pray the Rosary, do penance, and participate in the five first Saturdays?  Or are they also told to pray that the Holy Father will finally submit to Our Lady's explicit orders to consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart, together with all of the bishops of the world?

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Centroamerica on May 05, 2014, 06:31:19 AM

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Yes, I'm aware that many of our priests have to travel on a circuit every week, but do any of them board flights on a regular basis as part of that circuit?

Of course they take flights. How else would they get from point a to b. Many of the missions are spread apart since they are mostly in major cities. Many priests take flight to various chapels.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on May 05, 2014, 03:59:16 PM

Quote from: Centroamerica

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Yes, I'm aware that many of our priests have to travel on a circuit every week, but do any of them board flights on a regular basis as part of that circuit?

Of course they take flights. How else would they get from point a to b. Many of the missions are spread apart since they are mostly in major cities. Many priests take flight to various chapels.

Can you give an example of a priest who has to fly  to various locations every Sunday?

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Cantarella on May 05, 2014, 07:32:06 PM

Our SSPX priest travels weekly to offer Mass. He is not young but he is a much devote and worthy pastor. God bless his soul!

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: hugeman on May 05, 2014, 07:51:35 PM

Please,

 WHAT is this thread about?

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: TKGS on May 05, 2014, 08:12:11 PM

Quote

Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?

I think Father Gruner is on his own team.  I doubt he has any animosity towards the mainstream SSPX or the resistance SSPX and I doubt that he would want to publicly take sides since his extensive mailing/donor list probably includes people in both camps.

Has Catholic Family News made any public pronouncements on the matter of the SSPX/Resistance schism?  I frequently receive free copies (for reasons I do not understand) and I don't recall seeing any articles discussing the issue, though I have not seen every edition since the Letter of the Three Bishops was published.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Ferdinand on May 06, 2014, 08:49:36 PM

I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2014, 01:35:46 AM

Quote from: hugeman

Please,

 WHAT is this thread about?

I think this is an excellent question.  As usual, hugeman goes right to the elephant in the middle of the room.  Good job!  

The OP asked about Fr. Gruner and then every subsequent post is all about whether anyone knows of a specific priest who takes flights from two or more locations every Sunday to say 3 Masses.  

One thing's for sure:  Fr. Gruner doesn't fly like that, so how is the second question relevant to the Thread Title???

Quote from: TKGS

Quote

Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?

I think Father Gruner is on his own team.  I doubt he has any animosity towards the mainstream SSPX or the resistance SSPX and I doubt that he would want to publicly take sides since his extensive mailing/donor list probably includes people in both camps.

Fr. Gruner has to balance a lot of factors.  The majority of his subscribers are those who are loyal to their local diocese.  When he first got started he provided NovusOrdo services to those who prefered that, but he always used only the first edition of 1970 (I think it was), and never any of the later corruptions (as if that wasn't "corrupt" enough) -- but it was another priest who offered that mass, not Fr. Gruner.  This was the way he did his conferences for years and years, up to and beyond 1999.  As for himself, he always offered the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass exclusively, although he might have said a few NovusOrdo liturgies in the first few years or whatever.  You'd have to ask him about that.  

Since the greatest support he has is among NovusOrdo Catholics who love Our Lady and the Rosary and the Fatima message, he has seen fit to not preach against the Newmass, but he provides the consistent example of only offering the CTLM himself.  I have no doubt but that this is a great penance for him.

He does not parade the term "Canonized" like I do.  But he does not disagree with its use, because it was in fact canonized in Quo Primum.

Quote

Has Catholic Family News made any public pronouncements on the matter of the SSPX/Resistance schism?  I frequently receive free copies (for reasons I do not understand) and I don't recall seeing any articles discussing the issue, though I have not seen every edition since the Letter of the Three Bishops was published.

The subscription practices of CFN are a lot like those of the Crusader, but CFN at least offers the PRETENSE of charging some kind of rate for it.  

CFN has been conspicuously slow in recognizing the liberal slide of the Society.  This is no doubt due to the same thing Fr. Gruner faces, in that the majority of CFN paying subscribers are sympathetic to the wiles of Menzingen and blind to the foibles of +Fellay.  If John Vennari were to print those words he would get an avalanche of hate mail like he has never seen.  He already gets a lot from those who criticize his comments regarding the Modernism of Pope Francis.  

As you say, since the Letter of the Three Bishops and +Fellay's reaction, there has been no "conversion" in the product known as CFN, even if there has been some objective reflection in the mind of its editor.  Mr. Vennari faces a lot of the same problems that Fr. Gruner does.  Which is more important?  Write what you know is the message that Catholics need to hear because it is really happening, or, stay in business?  Because it's glaringly possible that you simply cannot have both at the same time.

Quote from: Ferdinand

I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?

I noticed you put a question mark there, at the end of that sentence, which is not inherently a question, therefore, your choice of punctuation is rather revealing, don't cha know?

Maybe you should first figure out whether Padre Pio was really a priest!  Then, after that task is complete, research whether any of the thousands of claims of personal witness that   A)  he bilocated,   B)  he worked hundreds of miracles every day,  C)  he suffered the stigmata -- and yes, IT HURT,  D)  he was a holy priest,   E)  he deserved to be canonized (whether or not you think he was in fact canonized is irrelevant in this exercise!),   F)   his remains were perhaps found to mysteriously have vanished from the grave leaving his robe and slippers just as they were on his body when he was buried, and last but not least,  G)  he had the gift of prophesy, and that not one of his prophesies ever was shown to be false or somehow conspicuously incomplete.

After all that, then maybe you might research the meeting that Fr. Gruner had with Padre Pio before he was even ordained.   If you make it that far, then, since you've been doing this "for years" already, you could ask yourself,

"Ferdinand, if Padre Pio really had the gift of prophesy as thousands of still-living eyewitnesses attest he did, why would he have not warned the young Nicholas Gruner that his ordination one day would be questionable?"

You could have saved yourself a number of "years" by asking me this "question" a long time ago.  

Alternatively, if you still refuse to think reasonably about Fr. Gruner, perhaps your devoted efforts would be better directed to some other topics, since you're manifestly incapable when it comes to this one.  


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2014, 01:57:12 AM

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Specifically regarding the thread title (which does not show up while you're posting your comment, BTW),

Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?, It would make sense

While it might indeed "make sense" from a superficial point of view, if you understand what Fr. Gruner is up against and what his mission is for, and where he got his mission, and to what authority he defers, and how he has endeavored to make a "go" of this calling from whence it came, you might begin to sense the challenges he faces.  Then, once you have done that, you might be willing to entertain a few questions including but not limited to the following:  

1)   Would it be helpful toward the greater good of his mission to be aligned with the Resistance?  If so, then why?

2)   What is it about the Resistance that would be beneficial to the manifest mission of Fr. Gruner's apostolate and his long-established purpose in pursuing it?

3)   Would his alignment with the Resistance be a benefit to his mission, or a hinderance?

4)   Does he have to take a stand in regards to the topics the Resistance typically addresses before he can be at peace with Resistance priests and faithful?

5)   What would serve the greater glory of God better:  for Fr. Gruner to announce his open 'alignment' with the Resistance, or, for him to not announce it, nor answer to questions that would urge him to do so?


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2014, 02:53:58 AM

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Is SSPX in schism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitQdPJIDLc)

I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?

I find it revealing that in a video of 8-1/2 minutes, you have focused on a 10-second clip starting at minute 8:00 and thereby corrupted the opening post of your whole thread with a side-issue that is unrelated to the thread title.  

This 10-second theme is objectively one-fiftieth of the duration of the video but it is 9/10ths of the content of this whole thread.  (Excluding my posts, obviously.)

The video has nothing to do with the Resistance, to top it off.  

When John Vennari and Fr. Gruner converse over the accusations of the SSPX being "in schism" it has nothing to do with what the Resistance is saying.  

Maybe spending too much time on CathInfo isn't good for your wider perception of reality.  

They are talking about accusations from the general public (who don't in the main even know that CI even exists) that by following ABL and by having 4 bishops not approved by Rome, the Society is therefore in "schism" -- and that is not what the Resistance is saying at all.  The Resistance says that having these 4 bishops is IN ACCORD with Catholic Tradition and following ABL is PRESERVING the Faith of our Fathers.  

Fr. Gruner and John Vennari do not even go so far as to SUGGEST that any kind of improper adherence to the Faith is going on in the SSPX.  They spend 8-1/2 minutes here DEFENDING the SSPX and the Society priests in what they do.  Why would they have anything to do with the Resistance, BASED ON THIS VIDEO?  

Answer:  They wouldn't.

And if that isn't enough, that tiny 10-second clip to which you're hanging on and with which you're undermining your whole thread, is a statement of Fr. Gruner IN SUPPORT of the diligence of the 500 Society priests who are spread so thin that they have to cover vast areas.  

If he were to get into what Fr. Pfeiffer, Chazal, Hewko, et.al. are up to, it would take a lot more than a mere 10 seconds, even though they're less than one tenth the numbers of the Society at large.  




If you're looking for material to present your NovusOrdo family for reasons they ought to lighten up about your defense of the Resistance, I would recommend you read The Recusant, that is, if you even know it exists.  

Go to the website of Ecclesia Militans and find all 15 extant issues available as PDF files.  If you haven't read any yet, I'd suggest starting with Issue #10, from about a year ago, or perhaps go to Issue #13 from January of this year.  

If you have any NovusOrdo friends who are theologians or are conversant in matters of moral theology or ecclesiology (highly unlikely, but nonetheless possible) you could try Issue #12, or, for a quick peek, go to this thread (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=29223&min=30#p4) and see the entire thing which I posted in about 50 installments with some commentary, and with corrected footnotes.  (That link takes you to page 7 which is the beginning of the posts, after trolls kept interrupting its progress.)  

If you want to be overrun by hecklers and distractions, then read the first 7 pages, but you're not going to have much stamina left for the remaining 25 pages of posts in the thread.  

Issue #12 is in regards to the fine answer a group of Canadian faithful gave to the execrable screed of Fr. Themann -- a screed with which most Novordiens would not disagree.  IOW you should be ready for a FIGHT if you show them #12!  

Are you looking for a fight or do you want marshmallows and warm fuzzies?

Quote from: After all, you

I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.

So, it would seem you could possibly be looking for a fight.  If so, #12 is a great resource for you.


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2014, 03:22:58 AM

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If you want to actually make progress in the Issue #12, you should realize that after that 5th post on page 7, there are 3 more pages of demons howling before page 3 can be posted at the end of page 10, here (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=29223&min=45#p4).

This link gives you a link to the first 2 pages that had been posted earlier.

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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 07, 2014, 04:09:17 AM

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Is SSPX in schism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitQdPJIDLc)

I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?

It seems there is another aspect to your OP, SoldierOfChrist, which I have not addressed.  

Your concern in watching this particular video was to find something to present to your family members, and to that end, you're hoping that their awareness and/or adherence to the Message of Fatima (which Fr. Gruner is hands down the best at conveying) might arouse in them interest or sympathy with your stand in the Resistance, correct?  

Furthermore, since the SSPX priests seem to not be so much in tune with this same Message of Fatima according to certain Resistance priests (and they're probably correct) you therefore leap to the anticipation that Fr. Gruner would likely be supportive of the Resistance and not so much the Society priests.  

First off, it seems to me that a lot of the Society priests are sympathetic to the Message of Fatima, even if they don't really preach it.  There is a difference in the Resistance approach, which says that what we preach does not take a back seat to political correctness or Newchurch sensibilities which do not exclude the Ostpolitik of the Balamand Agreement, for example.  Try to find any diocese bishop who is not a bit weak on standing up against Balamand and you'll have a very unique find, I can assure you.  This is the crux of Fr. Gruner's battle, BTW.

Now, if Fr. Gruner were to take that football and run with it, he would likely be acting in a way that ignores all of his life experience.  Maybe that's what you would do, but you haven't had Fr. Gruner's training for 40 years.  

Just as Fr. Gruner has to find a way to get the support of good-willed bishops who have for whatever reason been UNINFORMED about the Message of Fatima, so too, he has to find a way to get the support of good-willed SSPX priests who have for whatever reason been LED TO FORGET ABOUT the Message of Fatima, even if they had once fought for its wider dissemination.  

The question to ask here IMHO is what has led these good priests to forget about Fatima?  

I have the answer for you, if you want it.  It is the general liberal slide of the Society, and it is this liberalism that has corrupted the thinking of the SG and his assistants and which they have promoted by "STACKING THE DECK" of Capitulants with their liberal agenda sympathizers.  Over the past 19 years of his SuperiorGeneralship, +F has consistently rewarded the liberals and has consistently punished the conservatives.  Therein lies the rub, as one famous author, probably Francis Bacon, once said.  

While from the outside it might seem like this liberal slide is the enemy of Our Lady of Fatima (and in a big way that is true) at the same time, it would be a huge job for Fr. Gruner to undertake the project that would be demanded of him were he to attempt to segregate the SSPX Faithful into two groups:  Those who are faithful to Our Lady and therefore the Church come what may, and those who are first of all faithful to the person of +Fellay (Fellayites), and are therefore willing to regard the unfailing devotion and diligence of Fr. Gruner to the spreading worldwide of the Message of Fatima as if it were some kind of enemy.  

How would Fr. Gruner keep from giving himself a bad name in Menzingen by stirring up such a controversy?   What do you suppose would happen if +F were to come out with a 3-minute denouncement of Fr. Gruner and his apostolate?  I can tell you what would happen.  Fr. Gruner would lose about 20% of his contributors in exactly 3 minutes, that's what.

There was a time when Fr. Pfeiffer had announced about 2 years ago that Fr. Gruner was on his way back to Canada and was going to stop off in Kentucky to give a little support and encouragement to the small gathering there on some occasion.  They were having a retreat or a conference or something.  At the last minute, he canceled.  I can tell you what probably happened, but I don't know for sure.  Fr. Gruner probably got a phone call from Fr. Rostand or Fr. Wegner or someone like that, after they had heard that he was planning to drop in to support the Resistance, and they LIKELY told him that if he does so, then that little 3-minute announcement from Menzingen would be cut loose like one of the plagues of Egypt.  So Fr. Gruner changed his route plans.  

Can you blame him?  What would you do?  Go out of business?  He stands to lose a lot more by becoming an outcast of the Society than he stands to gain by being accepted by the Resistance.  

But we Resistance folks can be bigger than that.  We can show Fr. Gruner that we support him, even if he's afraid of what Menzingen will say about him.  At this point, the penchant of Matthew to give a platform to sedes here comes into play, for as you can see in an earlier post by Ferdinand, they are myopically bent on questioning the validity of ordinations, which in the main is a deception of the devil.  Things are not always so simple and so black-and-white.  

What would you do if you were Fr. Gruner?  Would you throw in your allegiance to a pious union that is a little weak on Fatima but not openly opposed to it, or, would you cast your lot with a rogue group including no small number of sedes   A)   who question his ordination,  B)  who don't like to hear about all the bishops of the world joining the pope because  C)  they think that the pope is not the pope and the bishops are not the bishops,  D)  that are bent on saying that IT'S TOO LATE for the Collegial Consecration, WE MISSED THE BOAT -- IT'S O-V-E-R?  

HMMM???


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on May 07, 2014, 06:29:14 AM

Neil, thank you for the reply.  It looks like it took a lot of time and thought to put together.   As usual,  it is filled with a lot of useful information. I will look more into the recusant
 Until now, my main source of information about the resistance has come from here, eleison comments, and from YouTube video of sermons. That said, I have to say that I find your characterization of me as insulting as it is inaccurate. I don't eat marshmallows and I love a good fight. Thus my namesake. I should have been more clear in the original post that I was suggesting he was interiorly sympathetic to the resistance and not contemplating an open alliance.   Anyway, the lack of clarity is my fault. Thanks for your analysis. I'm at work so this is all I can say in response for now.  Be well.
 

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Christopher67 on May 07, 2014, 07:30:42 AM

Quote from: Ferdinand

I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?

And here we have Ferdinand, who is quite late to the smear campaign. Ferdinand claims he has spent years trying to find an answer to what the vast majority can find in mere seconds.  It's a wonder Ferdinand is able to dress himself in the morning, let alone turn on and use a computer to write this sort of trash......Here you go, Ferdinand, right from the "accused" himself;

http://youtu.be/1Xh4-6muhoA

Ferdinand, and those like him need some new material.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Ferdinand on May 07, 2014, 09:56:29 AM

Quote from: Christopher67

Quote from: Ferdinand

I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?

And here we have Ferdinand, who is quite late to the smear campaign. Ferdinand claims he has spent years trying to find an answer to what the vast majority can find in mere seconds.  It's a wonder Ferdinand is able to dress himself in the morning, let alone turn on and use a computer to write this sort of trash......Here you go, Ferdinand, right from the "accused" himself;

http://youtu.be/1Xh4-6muhoA

Ferdinand, and those like him need some new material.

Apparently Nicholas Gruner was ordained at Avellino, Italy on August 22, 1976 by Bishop Pasquale Venezia.

Was it in the doubtful Bugnini Rite?  If so, who "conditionally" ordained him thereafter?  

The faithful have a right to know.  

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Centroamerica on May 07, 2014, 09:59:31 AM

Quote from: Ferdinand

Quote from: Christopher67

Quote from: Ferdinand

I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?

And here we have Ferdinand, who is quite late to the smear campaign. Ferdinand claims he has spent years trying to find an answer to what the vast majority can find in mere seconds.  It's a wonder Ferdinand is able to dress himself in the morning, let alone turn on and use a computer to write this sort of trash......Here you go, Ferdinand, right from the "accused" himself;

http://youtu.be/1Xh4-6muhoA

Ferdinand, and those like him need some new material.

Apparently Nicholas Gruner was ordained at Avellino, Italy on August 22, 1976 by Bishop Pasquale Venezia.

Was it in the doubtful Bugnini Rite?  If so, who "conditionally" ordained him thereafter?  

The faithful have a right to know.  

For once, I agree with you.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Ferdinand on May 07, 2014, 10:02:05 AM

Quote from: Neil Obstat

Blah, Blah, Blah... and something about Padre Pio

Simple questions...

Apparently Nicholas Gruner was ordained at Avellino, Italy on August 22, 1976 by Bishop Pasquale Venezia.

Was it in the doubtful Bugnini Rite?  If so, who "conditionally" ordained him thereafter?

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Matto on May 07, 2014, 02:20:51 PM

Quote from: Ferdinand

Apparently Nicholas Gruner was ordained at Avellino, Italy on August 22, 1976 by Bishop Pasquale Venezia.

Was it in the doubtful Bugnini Rite?  If so, who "conditionally" ordained him thereafter?  

The faithful have a right to know.  

I read that he was ordained in the New Rite and was never conditionally ordained.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Mabel on May 07, 2014, 03:45:59 PM

His defense, from my understanding, is that the essential form is not changed from the original Latin meaning when it is translated to Italian.

I don't have any docuмentation where he says this but I have talked to people who know him well.

I don't know enough about fine details of the matter to make a judgement but it is suspect enough that I wouldn't go to his mass without being absolutely sure.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on May 07, 2014, 04:17:31 PM

Well I don't think that God would make His most heroic declarer of Our Lady's Message out of a fake priest and I find it offensive that all of you can go about talking thus of Father Gruner without scruple.

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 04:10:19 PM

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Well I don't think that God would make His most heroic declarer of Our Lady's Message out of a fake priest and I find it offensive that all of you can go about talking thus of Father Gruner without scruple.

I agree, and I have personal experience with this.  

I have met hundreds of people over the years who are already aware of Fr. Gruner, and they are of two kinds:  

1)  Everyone I have ever met who has an abiding love for Our Lady of Fatima and is Catholic, and prays the Rosary, has a favorable outlook on Fr. Gruner and the work he does.  While there is some variation in these people, they are all united under the mantle of Our Lady, who protects their faith.

2)  Everyone I have ever met who has some kind of reservation regarding Our Lady, the Message of Fatima, praying the Rosary, or the doctrine of the Church and knows of Fr. Gruner, has also some kind of "problem" with Fr. or his work, or doesn't want to talk about it, or whatever.  The variety of these are legion.

I don't claim to know everyone or to have met every kind of person, but it seems rather obvious that from what I do know, that these things would be true.  

I have many stories I could tell but who would listen?  I have known him for many years and I know others in other families who have as well, some of whom provide him a place to stay and say Mass when he's in the area.  These are all staunch traditional Catholics who pray the daily Rosary and assist at Mass as often as possible.  Fr. Gruner is a mild-mannered and peace-loving man who goes out of his way to help people and to keep the Sacred Traditions of the Church intact.  

His enemies are likewise enemies of Tradition -- every one I have known.  

Curiously, while the CMRI priests don't seem to like to talk about him (in my narrow experience) they nonetheless are not averse to distribute various holy cards and leaflets that the Fatima Center (Fr. Gruner's project) prints and distributes, but they don't provide copies of The Fatima Crusader, to my knowledge.  Apparently the reason for that is, that they disagree regarding Fr. G's message that we should pray and work for the Collegial Consecration of Russia to the IHM (Pope and bishops of the world) because, they say, we don't have a pope and the bishops are not Catholic, nor are they even bishops, and most of them are not even priests!  So how is this Consecration ever going to happen?  

They would therefore make Our Lady into a liar, but they don't like to hear that either.  She said that the Consecration will be done, but it will be late.  Was she lying?  Or did she make an 'honest mistake'?  If Our Lady could be WRONG about that, then she could be wrong about EVERYTHING.  That is the nature of truth.  It is either true or it is not true.  There is no middle ground.  So which is it?  Has the Consecration been done then?  Oh, then you must have a date for that.   Which pope did it and when?   (No answer)  Okay, then it has not been done.  But you claim that it will not be done in the future, correct?  (Yes, that is correct.)  So then you think the Blessed Virgin Mary told a lie, correct?  (No answer)  -- it just makes no sense.  


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 04:25:46 PM

Quote from: SoldierOfChrist

Neil, thank you for the reply.  It looks like it took a lot of time and thought to put together.   As usual,  it is filled with a lot of useful information. I will look more into the recusant.

 Until now, my main source of information about the resistance has come from here, eleison comments, and from YouTube video of sermons. That said, I have to say that I find your characterization of me as insulting as it is inaccurate. I don't eat marshmallows and I love a good fight. Thus my namesake. I should have been more clear in the original post that I was suggesting he was interiorly sympathetic to the resistance and not contemplating an open alliance.  

Anyway, the lack of clarity is my fault. Thanks for your analysis. I'm at work so this is all I can say in response for now.  Be well.
 

Sorry -- marshmallows refers to soft on difficult subjects, not just a sugary food item.  I do appreciate your username.

If what I said seemed "insulting" I'm sorry it appears that way, because I did not intend to make you feel bad.  I'm just trying to wake people up, and some of them prefer to remain in their deep slumber.  

I think you'll be much more impressed with The Recusant than you are with what I have to say.  


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 04:33:28 PM

Quote from: Christopher67

Quote from: Ferdinand

I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?

And here we have Ferdinand, who is quite late to the smear campaign. Ferdinand claims he has spent years trying to find an answer to what the vast majority can find in mere seconds.  It's a wonder Ferdinand is able to dress himself in the morning, let alone turn on and use a computer to write this sort of trash......Here you go, Ferdinand, right from the "accused" himself;

http://youtu.be/1Xh4-6muhoA

Ferdinand, and those like him need some new material.

Those like him need a retreat and to learn how to ACT like they're Catholic.  

It's miserable to see someone with such latent angst and melancholy.  Surely there is a better prayer life or something that could help?   Sedevacantism attracts their kind of thinking, though, so it's not too surprising.  

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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Ferdinand on May 08, 2014, 04:51:02 PM

Quote from: Neil Obstat

Blah, Blah, Blah... and something about marshmallows and his need for a retreat

Simple question Neil...

Who "conditionally" ordained him?

Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 05:27:58 PM

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I'm making a prediction.  

Our Lady's promise that the Collegial Consecration of Russia will happen shall be fulfilled.  

Our Lady does not lie.  

So it will happen and of this we can be sure.

But we have no idea when it will happen.  

50 years ago I knew people who thought it would happen soon, and in 1978, a lot of Catholics were absolutely positive that JPII the "Marian Pope" (His coat of arms has an "M" on it, after all!) would be the one to get it done.  Fr. Gruner was on the front lines of that concept, for many reasons.  

As the 26 years of his pontificate wore on, it became a bit less believable that he would be the pope to do it, and Fr. Gruner was told so, by someone that he trusted.  

Then came the pope following JPII, and there wasn't much to show there, for reasons to believe that he would be the one.  

Then came Francis.  Now we know that he is capable of pronouncing the words "declare and define," so this is a good sign, in a backhanded sort of way.  We have Resistance priests who are willing to say that Francis could be the one to do the Consecration.  We have other Trad priests saying it too.  We have others who don't have anything to say about it, and then we have some who say it's not going to happen.  Among this last category we have sedevacantists who say it's not going to happen and disagree with other things among other trad priests, and we also have other trad priests who say it's not going to happen who disagree with sedevacantism.  

So who are you going to believe?  Have I omitted a category?  It's hard to imaging there could be this much disagreement between traditional Catholic priests.

But back to my prediction (sorry I digress).  My prediction is, that when the Pope finally makes this Consecration as Our Lady requests, there shall then result the conversion of Russia, because she said so, because it is her example of faith that makes her the perfect fulfillment of God's creation in all of human history, and it will become evident immediately, like in about 5 minutes, by e-mail, long enough to type the message.  But it will not become known worldwide for a few hours, and for some, not until the next day when they wake up and smell the coffee.  Or Breakfast Burritos.  Whatever.  

When the import of this conversion of Russia sinks in to the Roman Rite  bishops of the world, they will then realize that it's their turn, and many (if not all) of them will also convert.  However, there are going to be sedevacantists who remain immune from this grace, and the evidence of their existence is found right here on this thread.  They're DUG IN and they will continue to be DUG IN because not even God will infallibly demand that a cold heart will become warm again.  When Our Lady intercedes with this conspicuous outpouring of God's grace there will be some who refuse to cooperate with it, because they are attached to their sin.  Theirs is the sin of schism, for they refuse to be subject to the Roman Pontiff as infallibly defined as necessary for every human creature.  

And their reason will be the following:

Since the forms of episcopal consecration and priestly ordination were changed in 1968 and 1969 respectively, those consecrated or ordained according to the new form, they say, are invalidly consecrated or ordained and are not bishops or are not priests (according to the sedes).  Therefore, since the current pope is not the Pope, all of these characters are frauds.  And this false doctrine eats away at them like a cancer.  They are known to us as "dogmatic sedevacantists" because they put their own, private judgment above that of the legitimate authorities in this matter of formula for holy orders.

They will say that this so-called conversion of Russia and of the Roman Rite bishops is a deception of the devil, and that HAS TO BE A FACT (dogmatic) because of the 'fact' (dogmatic) that the 'pope' who led the Collegial Consecration was not the Pope, and (dogmatic) the 'bishops' who obeyed him were not the Bishops, and furthermore, (dogmatic) the 'priests' who promoted and supported this were not the Priests.  And if you dare to take issue with them over this, then, (they would say) well, well, well, you're just OUTSIDE THE CHURCH, then.  So there.


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 05:41:40 PM

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Here.  Have a tissue.  

(http://www.articlesweb.org/blog/wp-content/gallery/facial-tissues-brands-the-brands-providing-hygiene/facial-tissues-10.jpg)

I.e., read it and weep.  


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 05:57:24 PM

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Based on my prediction (which has not come to pass, obviously) it therefore logically follows that when Our Lady came in 1917 to the 3 shepherd children (God rest their souls) in Fatima, she fully knew that there would one day be an eruption of sedevacantism in America (conspicuously) that would from there spread over the world (much as the Americanism that was a key factor in Vat.II has also spread) and many good Catholics would get drawn to it after the corruption in the highest offices of the Church had increased.  She knew that they would deny the legitimacy of the Pope and she offered this plan of having the Pope and Bishops of the world collegially consecrate Russia, as a last resort, such that the conversion of Russia could be a sign to the world of the power of God's grace and such that two things would be thereby facilitated (among others):

1)..     Catholics worldwide BEFORE the consecration and subsequent conversion of Russia, would be encouraged BY THEIR BELIEF IN THIS PROMISE OF HERS, that even though the popes and bishops of the post-conciliar Church are more and more diviant by the day, nonetheless, they remain the true popes and bishops of the Church, and,

2)..     Upon the fulfillment of this promise, all the faithful Catholics of the world will be able to unite under the manifestly true Pope after the conversion of Russia.  


AFTER ALL THAT, it still remains incuмbent upon the individuals involved, to accept this as an act of God, and to once again become subject to the legitimate Roman Pontiff.  For God has given man a free will, by which he can choose to deny God, or deny His Grace or choose to NOT cooperate with His Grace.  God does not take this freedom to choose away from man, because God does not want a heaven full of robots but rather a heaven full of those who chose to love God of their own free will, without coersion.  


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 06:09:32 PM

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Our Lady knew from her incomparably vision-clear vantage point in ETERNITY (she has her body, you know -- THAT is a dogmatic fact) that the errors of Russia would spread throughout the world, and they have, but she also knew that the errors of America would likewise spread throughout the world -- however, she saw fit to not mention that in her Message, since the msg was already a bitter pill to swallow.  She's a mother, and she knows all about bitter pills for her children.

She knew about the spreading error of sedevacantism and she knew that for some, it would be a refuge, for a while, so she allowed it to be "for a time" yet did not make any mention of it.  She saw (from her infinitely clear vantage point) that not saying anything would be better for everyone.  

Her children in the sede congregations continue to pray Her Rosary, and to keep the 15-decade tradition, and in fact, even though they deny the validity of the pope, they curiously include prayers for the Holy Father after certain litanies and indulgenced prayers, as if they do not deny the validity of the Holy Father.  This could be viewed as a small miracle in itself!  


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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 06:28:25 PM

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When She spoke to the Fatima children She knew these things.  She knew at that time that YOU would be reading THIS MESSAGE, today, and She knew that the Consecration would not yet have been made in early May of 2014.  

She knew that JPII and JXXIII would be canonized saints.  

She knew that some thousand or so borderline sedes would be falling over like dominoes because of that, and She knew that some of the hard-liners would become HOSTILE regarding their dogmatic stand on the validity of ordinations and episcopal consecrations.  

She knew that they would nonetheless stand firm on the doctrine of the Real Presence and their steadfast devotion to Her Son was worth to her more than a lot of other things.  

She was told by Simeon in the Temple that through Her heart a sword would pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts would be revealed.  When She heard that, She no doubt felt Her Immaculate Heart pained immediately, but She did not therefore give up the fight.  She pondered these things in Her Immaculate Heart.

And so it was, and so it is, and so it shall be forevermore, for She alone destroys all the heresies of the world.  

Gaude, Maria Virgo, cunctas haereses sola interemisti,

Quae Gabrielis Archangeli dictis credidisti.

Dum Virgo Deum et hominum genuisti :

Et post partum Virgo inviolata permenisti.

Dei Genitrix, intercede pro nobis.  Amen.  

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Title: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 08, 2014, 06:36:25 PM

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This is the Church's song of praise to the Holy and Blessed Mary who is who she is because of what she did -- she believed, and she kept God's commandments.  


Father Gruner is just a man, but he is a priest, and he teaches this kind of faithfulness to Our Lady.  I learned it from him.  He is a good teacher.  Listen to him and you might learn something.  


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