Author Topic: Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?  (Read 5254 times)

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Offline SoldierOfChrist

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Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
« on: May 04, 2014, 10:16:30 PM »
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  • I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

    Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

    What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?

    Offline Azul

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #1 on: May 04, 2014, 10:52:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: SoldierOfChrist


    I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

    Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

    What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?


    There are many Society priests who must travel extensively on a circuit every week. I have been a faithful of the Society for decades and I have seen young priests turn grey almost overnight from the demands of being one of the few truly Catholic priests available to offer Mass and give the sacraments to the faithful who are spread all over the world.

    Also the message of Fatima is widely promoted by our Society priests. We are encouraged to pray the rosary, do our duty of state and pray for the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. This has been a constant exhortation from the SSPX from the beginning.



    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #2 on: May 04, 2014, 11:47:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Azul
    Quote from: SoldierOfChrist


    I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

    Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

    What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?


    There are many Society priests who must travel extensively on a circuit every week. I have been a faithful of the Society for decades and I have seen young priests turn grey almost overnight from the demands of being one of the few truly Catholic priests available to offer Mass and give the sacraments to the faithful who are spread all over the world.

    Also the message of Fatima is widely promoted by our Society priests. We are encouraged to pray the rosary, do our duty of state and pray for the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. This has been a constant exhortation from the SSPX from the beginning.



    Yes, I'm aware that many of our priests have to travel on a circuit every week, but do any of them board flights on a regular basis as part of that circuit?

    Regarding the message of Fatima, I'm interested in what is being taught now about it.  Are the faithful merely told to pray the Rosary, do penance, and participate in the five first Saturdays?  Or are they also told to pray that the Holy Father will finally submit to Our Lady's explicit orders to consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart, together with all of the bishops of the world?

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #3 on: May 05, 2014, 06:31:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: SoldierOfChrist



    Yes, I'm aware that many of our priests have to travel on a circuit every week, but do any of them board flights on a regular basis as part of that circuit?



    Of course they take flights. How else would they get from point a to b. Many of the missions are spread apart since they are mostly in major cities. Many priests take flight to various chapels.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #4 on: May 05, 2014, 03:59:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: SoldierOfChrist



    Yes, I'm aware that many of our priests have to travel on a circuit every week, but do any of them board flights on a regular basis as part of that circuit?



    Of course they take flights. How else would they get from point a to b. Many of the missions are spread apart since they are mostly in major cities. Many priests take flight to various chapels.


    Can you give an example of a priest who has to fly  to various locations every Sunday?


    Offline Cantarella

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #5 on: May 05, 2014, 07:32:06 PM »
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  • Our SSPX priest travels weekly to offer Mass. He is not young but he is a much devote and worthy pastor. God bless his soul!
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline hugeman

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #6 on: May 05, 2014, 07:51:35 PM »
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  • Please,

     WHAT is this thread about?

    Offline TKGS

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #7 on: May 05, 2014, 08:12:11 PM »
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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?


    I think Father Gruner is on his own team.  I doubt he has any animosity towards the mainstream SSPX or the resistance SSPX and I doubt that he would want to publicly take sides since his extensive mailing/donor list probably includes people in both camps.

    Has Catholic Family News made any public pronouncements on the matter of the SSPX/Resistance schism?  I frequently receive free copies (for reasons I do not understand) and I don't recall seeing any articles discussing the issue, though I have not seen every edition since the Letter of the Three Bishops was published.


    Offline Ferdinand

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #8 on: May 06, 2014, 08:49:36 PM »
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  • I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?

    Online Neil Obstat

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 01:35:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: hugeman
    Please,

     WHAT is this thread about?


    I think this is an excellent question.  As usual, hugeman goes right to the elephant in the middle of the room.  Good job!  

    The OP asked about Fr. Gruner and then every subsequent post is all about whether anyone knows of a specific priest who takes flights from two or more locations every Sunday to say 3 Masses.  

    One thing's for sure:  Fr. Gruner doesn't fly like that, so how is the second question relevant to the Thread Title???


    Quote from: TKGS
    Quote
    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?

    I think Father Gruner is on his own team.  I doubt he has any animosity towards the mainstream SSPX or the resistance SSPX and I doubt that he would want to publicly take sides since his extensive mailing/donor list probably includes people in both camps.


    Fr. Gruner has to balance a lot of factors.  The majority of his subscribers are those who are loyal to their local diocese.  When he first got started he provided NovusOrdo services to those who prefered that, but he always used only the first edition of 1970 (I think it was), and never any of the later corruptions (as if that wasn't "corrupt" enough) -- but it was another priest who offered that mass, not Fr. Gruner.  This was the way he did his conferences for years and years, up to and beyond 1999.  As for himself, he always offered the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass exclusively, although he might have said a few NovusOrdo liturgies in the first few years or whatever.  You'd have to ask him about that.  

    Since the greatest support he has is among NovusOrdo Catholics who love Our Lady and the Rosary and the Fatima message, he has seen fit to not preach against the Newmass, but he provides the consistent example of only offering the CTLM himself.  I have no doubt but that this is a great penance for him.

    He does not parade the term "Canonized" like I do.  But he does not disagree with its use, because it was in fact canonized in Quo Primum.

    Quote
    Has Catholic Family News made any public pronouncements on the matter of the SSPX/Resistance schism?  I frequently receive free copies (for reasons I do not understand) and I don't recall seeing any articles discussing the issue, though I have not seen every edition since the Letter of the Three Bishops was published.



    The subscription practices of CFN are a lot like those of the Crusader, but CFN at least offers the PRETENSE of charging some kind of rate for it.  

    CFN has been conspicuously slow in recognizing the liberal slide of the Society.  This is no doubt due to the same thing Fr. Gruner faces, in that the majority of CFN paying subscribers are sympathetic to the wiles of Menzingen and blind to the foibles of +Fellay.  If John Vennari were to print those words he would get an avalanche of hate mail like he has never seen.  He already gets a lot from those who criticize his comments regarding the Modernism of Pope Francis.  

    As you say, since the Letter of the Three Bishops and +Fellay's reaction, there has been no "conversion" in the product known as CFN, even if there has been some objective reflection in the mind of its editor.  Mr. Vennari faces a lot of the same problems that Fr. Gruner does.  Which is more important?  Write what you know is the message that Catholics need to hear because it is really happening, or, stay in business?  Because it's glaringly possible that you simply cannot have both at the same time.

    Quote from: Ferdinand

    I've been trying for years to find out whether "Fr. Gruner" is indeed a priest?



    I noticed you put a question mark there, at the end of that sentence, which is not inherently a question, therefore, your choice of punctuation is rather revealing, don't cha know?

    Maybe you should first figure out whether Padre Pio was really a priest!  Then, after that task is complete, research whether any of the thousands of claims of personal witness that   A)  he bilocated,   B)  he worked hundreds of miracles every day,  C)  he suffered the stigmata -- and yes, IT HURT,  D)  he was a holy priest,   E)  he deserved to be canonized (whether or not you think he was in fact canonized is irrelevant in this exercise!),   F)   his remains were perhaps found to mysteriously have vanished from the grave leaving his robe and slippers just as they were on his body when he was buried, and last but not least,  G)  he had the gift of prophesy, and that not one of his prophesies ever was shown to be false or somehow conspicuously incomplete.

    After all that, then maybe you might research the meeting that Fr. Gruner had with Padre Pio before he was even ordained.   If you make it that far, then, since you've been doing this "for years" already, you could ask yourself,

    "Ferdinand, if Padre Pio really had the gift of prophesy as thousands of still-living eyewitnesses attest he did, why would he have not warned the young Nicholas Gruner that his ordination one day would be questionable?"

    You could have saved yourself a number of "years" by asking me this "question" a long time ago.  

    Alternatively, if you still refuse to think reasonably about Fr. Gruner, perhaps your devoted efforts would be better directed to some other topics, since you're manifestly incapable when it comes to this one.  


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    Online Neil Obstat

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 01:57:12 AM »
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  • .

    Specifically regarding the thread title (which does not show up while you're posting your comment, BTW),

    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?, It would make sense

    While it might indeed "make sense" from a superficial point of view, if you understand what Fr. Gruner is up against and what his mission is for, and where he got his mission, and to what authority he defers, and how he has endeavored to make a "go" of this calling from whence it came, you might begin to sense the challenges he faces.  Then, once you have done that, you might be willing to entertain a few questions including but not limited to the following:  

    1)   Would it be helpful toward the greater good of his mission to be aligned with the Resistance?  If so, then why?

    2)   What is it about the Resistance that would be beneficial to the manifest mission of Fr. Gruner's apostolate and his long-established purpose in pursuing it?

    3)   Would his alignment with the Resistance be a benefit to his mission, or a hinderance?

    4)   Does he have to take a stand in regards to the topics the Resistance typically addresses before he can be at peace with Resistance priests and faithful?

    5)   What would serve the greater glory of God better:  for Fr. Gruner to announce his open 'alignment' with the Resistance, or, for him to not announce it, nor answer to questions that would urge him to do so?


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    Online Neil Obstat

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 02:53:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: SoldierOfChrist


    I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

    Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

    What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?



    I find it revealing that in a video of 8-1/2 minutes, you have focused on a 10-second clip starting at minute 8:00 and thereby corrupted the opening post of your whole thread with a side-issue that is unrelated to the thread title.  

    This 10-second theme is objectively one-fiftieth of the duration of the video but it is 9/10ths of the content of this whole thread.  (Excluding my posts, obviously.)

    The video has nothing to do with the Resistance, to top it off.  

    When John Vennari and Fr. Gruner converse over the accusations of the SSPX being "in schism" it has nothing to do with what the Resistance is saying.  

    Maybe spending too much time on CathInfo isn't good for your wider perception of reality.  

    They are talking about accusations from the general public (who don't in the main even know that CI even exists) that by following ABL and by having 4 bishops not approved by Rome, the Society is therefore in "schism" -- and that is not what the Resistance is saying at all.  The Resistance says that having these 4 bishops is IN ACCORD with Catholic Tradition and following ABL is PRESERVING the Faith of our Fathers.  

    Fr. Gruner and John Vennari do not even go so far as to SUGGEST that any kind of improper adherence to the Faith is going on in the SSPX.  They spend 8-1/2 minutes here DEFENDING the SSPX and the Society priests in what they do.  Why would they have anything to do with the Resistance, BASED ON THIS VIDEO?  

    Answer:  They wouldn't.

    And if that isn't enough, that tiny 10-second clip to which you're hanging on and with which you're undermining your whole thread, is a statement of Fr. Gruner IN SUPPORT of the diligence of the 500 Society priests who are spread so thin that they have to cover vast areas.  

    If he were to get into what Fr. Pfeiffer, Chazal, Hewko, et.al. are up to, it would take a lot more than a mere 10 seconds, even though they're less than one tenth the numbers of the Society at large.  




    If you're looking for material to present your NovusOrdo family for reasons they ought to lighten up about your defense of the Resistance, I would recommend you read The Recusant, that is, if you even know it exists.  

    Go to the website of Ecclesia Militans and find all 15 extant issues available as PDF files.  If you haven't read any yet, I'd suggest starting with Issue #10, from about a year ago, or perhaps go to Issue #13 from January of this year.  

    If you have any NovusOrdo friends who are theologians or are conversant in matters of moral theology or ecclesiology (highly unlikely, but nonetheless possible) you could try Issue #12, or, for a quick peek, go to this thread and see the entire thing which I posted in about 50 installments with some commentary, and with corrected footnotes.  (That link takes you to page 7 which is the beginning of the posts, after trolls kept interrupting its progress.)  

    If you want to be overrun by hecklers and distractions, then read the first 7 pages, but you're not going to have much stamina left for the remaining 25 pages of posts in the thread.  

    Issue #12 is in regards to the fine answer a group of Canadian faithful gave to the execrable screed of Fr. Themann -- a screed with which most Novordiens would not disagree.  IOW you should be ready for a FIGHT if you show them #12!  

    Are you looking for a fight or do you want marshmallows and warm fuzzies?


    Quote from: After all, you

    I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.



    So, it would seem you could possibly be looking for a fight.  If so, #12 is a great resource for you.


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    Online Neil Obstat

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #12 on: May 07, 2014, 03:22:58 AM »
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  • .

    If you want to actually make progress in the Issue #12, you should realize that after that 5th post on page 7, there are 3 more pages of demons howling before page 3 can be posted at the end of page 10, here.

    This link gives you a link to the first 2 pages that had been posted earlier.

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    Online Neil Obstat

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #13 on: May 07, 2014, 04:09:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: SoldierOfChrist


    I listened to the above video looking for arguments against my novus ordo family members.  In it, he mentioned that some of these priests say a Mass in one place, take a plane somewhere, say a Mass somewhere else, take another plane, and then say an evening Mass in another place.  I'm not fully aware of the normal functioning of the society up to now.  I only just started going to society Masses about a year and a half ago.  Are there any current SSPX priests that his description fits?  I know that it fits some the description of some of the resistance priests...

    Plus, it would make sense for Fr. Gruner to put his trust in the Resistance because they are furthering the message of Fatima, but at least according to Fr. Pfeiffer, the society priests are not.

    What do you think about this theory?  Is Fr. Gruner sympathetic to the Resistance movement?


    It seems there is another aspect to your OP, SoldierOfChrist, which I have not addressed.  

    Your concern in watching this particular video was to find something to present to your family members, and to that end, you're hoping that their awareness and/or adherence to the Message of Fatima (which Fr. Gruner is hands down the best at conveying) might arouse in them interest or sympathy with your stand in the Resistance, correct?  

    Furthermore, since the SSPX priests seem to not be so much in tune with this same Message of Fatima according to certain Resistance priests (and they're probably correct) you therefore leap to the anticipation that Fr. Gruner would likely be supportive of the Resistance and not so much the Society priests.  

    First off, it seems to me that a lot of the Society priests are sympathetic to the Message of Fatima, even if they don't really preach it.  There is a difference in the Resistance approach, which says that what we preach does not take a back seat to political correctness or Newchurch sensibilities which do not exclude the Ostpolitik of the Balamand Agreement, for example.  Try to find any diocese bishop who is not a bit weak on standing up against Balamand and you'll have a very unique find, I can assure you.  This is the crux of Fr. Gruner's battle, BTW.

    Now, if Fr. Gruner were to take that football and run with it, he would likely be acting in a way that ignores all of his life experience.  Maybe that's what you would do, but you haven't had Fr. Gruner's training for 40 years.  

    Just as Fr. Gruner has to find a way to get the support of good-willed bishops who have for whatever reason been UNINFORMED about the Message of Fatima, so too, he has to find a way to get the support of good-willed SSPX priests who have for whatever reason been LED TO FORGET ABOUT the Message of Fatima, even if they had once fought for its wider dissemination.  

    The question to ask here IMHO is what has led these good priests to forget about Fatima?  

    I have the answer for you, if you want it.  It is the general liberal slide of the Society, and it is this liberalism that has corrupted the thinking of the SG and his assistants and which they have promoted by "STACKING THE DECK" of Capitulants with their liberal agenda sympathizers.  Over the past 19 years of his SuperiorGeneralship, +F has consistently rewarded the liberals and has consistently punished the conservatives.  Therein lies the rub, as one famous author, probably Francis Bacon, once said.  

    While from the outside it might seem like this liberal slide is the enemy of Our Lady of Fatima (and in a big way that is true) at the same time, it would be a huge job for Fr. Gruner to undertake the project that would be demanded of him were he to attempt to segregate the SSPX Faithful into two groups:  Those who are faithful to Our Lady and therefore the Church come what may, and those who are first of all faithful to the person of +Fellay (Fellayites), and are therefore willing to regard the unfailing devotion and diligence of Fr. Gruner to the spreading worldwide of the Message of Fatima as if it were some kind of enemy.  

    How would Fr. Gruner keep from giving himself a bad name in Menzingen by stirring up such a controversy?   What do you suppose would happen if +F were to come out with a 3-minute denouncement of Fr. Gruner and his apostolate?  I can tell you what would happen.  Fr. Gruner would lose about 20% of his contributors in exactly 3 minutes, that's what.

    There was a time when Fr. Pfeiffer had announced about 2 years ago that Fr. Gruner was on his way back to Canada and was going to stop off in Kentucky to give a little support and encouragement to the small gathering there on some occasion.  They were having a retreat or a conference or something.  At the last minute, he canceled.  I can tell you what probably happened, but I don't know for sure.  Fr. Gruner probably got a phone call from Fr. Rostand or Fr. Wegner or someone like that, after they had heard that he was planning to drop in to support the Resistance, and they LIKELY told him that if he does so, then that little 3-minute announcement from Menzingen would be cut loose like one of the plagues of Egypt.  So Fr. Gruner changed his route plans.  

    Can you blame him?  What would you do?  Go out of business?  He stands to lose a lot more by becoming an outcast of the Society than he stands to gain by being accepted by the Resistance.  

    But we Resistance folks can be bigger than that.  We can show Fr. Gruner that we support him, even if he's afraid of what Menzingen will say about him.  At this point, the penchant of Matthew to give a platform to sedes here comes into play, for as you can see in an earlier post by Ferdinand, they are myopically bent on questioning the validity of ordinations, which in the main is a deception of the devil.  Things are not always so simple and so black-and-white.  

    What would you do if you were Fr. Gruner?  Would you throw in your allegiance to a pious union that is a little weak on Fatima but not openly opposed to it, or, would you cast your lot with a rogue group including no small number of sedes   A)   who question his ordination,  B)  who don't like to hear about all the bishops of the world joining the pope because  C)  they think that the pope is not the pope and the bishops are not the bishops,  D)  that are bent on saying that IT'S TOO LATE for the Collegial Consecration, WE MISSED THE BOAT -- IT'S O-V-E-R?  

    HMMM???


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    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Is Father Gruner aligned with the Resistance?
    « Reply #14 on: May 07, 2014, 06:29:14 AM »
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  • Neil, thank you for the reply.  It looks like it took a lot of time and thought to put together.   As usual,  it is filled with a lot of useful information. I will look more into the recusant
     Until now, my main source of information about the resistance has come from here, eleison comments, and from YouTube video of sermons. That said, I have to say that I find your characterization of me as insulting as it is inaccurate. I don't eat marshmallows and I love a good fight. Thus my namesake. I should have been more clear in the original post that I was suggesting he was interiorly sympathetic to the resistance and not contemplating an open alliance.   Anyway, the lack of clarity is my fault. Thanks for your analysis. I'm at work so this is all I can say in response for now.  Be well.
     

     

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