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Author Topic: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New  (Read 2579 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2023, 10:10:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: flatearthtrads on January 18, 2023, 09:53:51 AM
    +Vigano needs to be conditionally consecrated. Extremely important to reassure the faithful.

    +Vigano does nothing to help out the Resistance Bishops in administering the Sacraments. He prefers to hide away in his secret location and send missives out.

    The only way any bishop can be considered an heir to +Lefebvre is if he is descended from him in being a bishop. Anything else is pure sentimentalism. Even if it is +Williamson who says it.

    Not sure I agree that +Vigano needs to be conditionally consecrated (though you may be right about that), but I agree with the rest of your post. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #16 on: January 18, 2023, 10:10:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: flatearthtrads on January 18, 2023, 09:53:51 AM
    +Vigano needs to be conditionally consecrated. Extremely important to reassure the faithful.

    +Vigano does nothing to help out the Resistance Bishops in administering the Sacraments. He prefers to hide away in his secret location and send missives out.

    The only way any bishop can be considered an heir to +Lefebvre is if he is descended from him in being a bishop. Anything else is pure sentimentalism. Even if it is +Williamson who says it.

    I’ve collected Viganò’s entire works, and the only sentimentalism I’ve found in them is the recent comment on the death of Ratzinger.  Human weakness is…human. Jesus and Mary once walked the earth, but ever since, nobody has been perfect.

    Regarding helping the resistance bishops, yes, that collaboration would be awesome, but Vigano has his gaze set higher, to pull the entire Church to the right, and he knows the minute he publicly aligns with the Resistance (the dirty schismatic h0Ɩ0cαųst-denying blah blah Resistance), he will lose 95% of his influence, since all his good teaching will then be dismissed with cursory ad hominems.

    About his episcopal consecration, I saw a letter online from +Tissier regarding +Lazo saying that despite his lack of consecration in the old rite, he could still be used for confirmation (and in fact he was), since his priesthood was undisputed, and in necessity confirmation can be delegated to a simple priest.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #17 on: January 18, 2023, 10:11:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: flatearthtrads on January 18, 2023, 09:53:51 AM
    +Vigano needs to be conditionally consecrated. Extremely important to reassure the faithful.

    +Vigano does nothing to help out the Resistance Bishops in administering the Sacraments. He prefers to hide away in his secret location and send missives out.

    The only way any bishop can be considered an heir to +Lefebvre is if he is descended from him in being a bishop. Anything else is pure sentimentalism. Even if it is +Williamson who says it.

    1) Agreed ... except that +Vigano is a valid priest and all he's really doing is offering Mass.  If he were to take an active role in ordaining / consecrating, that would be a problem.

    2) Why would he help the Resistance bishops with the Sacraments?  Do they need help?  As for hiding away, he's legitimately concerned that the sodomite mafia would take him out after he exposed them in the wake of the McCarrick situation.  That's why he went into hiding, and while in hiding and offering the Tridentine Mass, that's when he converted to Tradition.

    3) +Williamson probably means he's an intellectual heir of +Lefebvre ... as one could say of most Traditional Catholics, even the FSSP.  It just means they inherited something from +Lefebvre and one would not necessarily have to derive Holy Orders from him.  As I said, I would say the entire FSSP owes its existence to +Lefebvre.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #18 on: January 18, 2023, 10:22:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 17, 2023, 09:26:18 PM
    I stopped in this one after a couple minutes.  Someone needs to pull the plug on this video, which claims that the Resistance Bishops are the only "True Catholic Bishops" and then, while promoting Frankenchurch theory, asserts that a Pope must be excommunicated by the bishops before he would cease to be pope ... which is a heretical proposition.  No pope can be judged in any way by the bishops and given a sentence of excommunication.

    There must be some kind of judgment from the hierarchy in order to carry out a legitimate sentence on the charge of heresy of a Pope. That's just common sense. It's nice to think that laymen are able to depose the Pope without any help from a Catholic hierarchy, but that's Catholic.

    I don't agree that the Resistance bishops are the only true bishops left. Even the Resistance bishops don't say that.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #19 on: January 18, 2023, 10:33:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 18, 2023, 10:22:15 AM
    There must be some kind of judgment from the hierarchy in order to carry out a legitimate sentence on the charge of heresy of a Pope. That's just common sense.

    Correct:

    By divine law, the pope is above and immune from coercive judgment, but not discretionary judgment.

    For more on this distinction of St. Bellarmine, Bossuet, et al. on the two forms of judgment, see here (scroll halfway down to the section heading titled “The Key Distinction Sedevacantists Have Missed:
    Two Forms of Judgment - Discretionary & Coercive”):

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/the-true-meaning-of-bellarmines-ipso.html?m=1
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #20 on: January 18, 2023, 11:18:43 AM »
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    • Uhm, that's not what the video said  Video said that Pope must be EXCOMMUNICATED.  That is not the same as rendering a judgment regading the fact of heresy.

    You're so desperate to defend R&R at all costs that you'll even try to defend heresy that a Pope can be excommunicated.

    Do you also agree with his absurd statement that "The Sacraments of the Resistance are the only Sacraments that a good Catholic can attend." ... given that many of you actually go to SSPX chapels?

    Later he says that Our Lord promised that the Church would always have bishops and say that the Bishops "that are still around today" are the Bishops of The Resistance and says that they're the only "True Catholic Bishops".  Really?

    He also defines the Resistance as the people who follow 4 bishops.  So you can't have a Resistance priest without following (whatever "following" means) these 4 Bishops.  I thought this was not really an organization so much as an orientation / position regardin the crisis.

    This guy who made this video is a crackpot, and you should stop defending him before you discredit The Resistance as a whole.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #21 on: January 18, 2023, 11:21:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 18, 2023, 11:18:43 AM
    Uhm, that's not what the video said  Video said that Pope must be EXCOMMUNICATED.  That is not the same as rendering a judgment regading the fact of heresy.

    You're so desperate to defend R&R at all costs that you'll even try to defend heresy that a Pope can be excommunicated.

    Do you also agree with his absurd statement that "The Sacraments of the Resistance are the only Sacraments that a good Catholic can attend." ... given that many of you actually go to SSPX chapels?

    This guy who made this video is a crackpot, and you should stop defending him before you discredit The Resistance as a whole.

    (Deleted...looks like you were talking to Meg).
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #22 on: January 18, 2023, 11:23:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 18, 2023, 11:18:43 AM
    Uhm, that's not what the video said  Video said that Pope must be EXCOMMUNICATED.  That is not the same as rendering a judgment regading the fact of heresy.

    You're so desperate to defend R&R at all costs that you'll even try to defend heresy that a Pope can be excommunicated.

    I know that's what the video said. I should have said that I don't know if excommunication is the answer. But at least it's some kind of judgment by the hierarchy. There is no official Church teaching on how to deal with a heretical pope. If someone thinks that excommunication is the answer - well - that's one of many opinions on the subject. Bottom line is that some sort of judgment needs to be made by the hierarchy regarding the problem of a heretical Pope. It's not the job of the laity to decide the matter. As the laity we don't follow heretics, but we also are not qualified to pass sentence on them.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #23 on: January 18, 2023, 11:27:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 18, 2023, 11:21:50 AM
    (Deleted...looks like you were talking to Meg).

    Well, to both of you in a sense.  Meg was respoinding to my problem with saying that the bishops must excommunicate a Pope before he ceases to be pope, implying that "excommunicating" a pope is the same as declaring the fact that he's a heretic.  They're not the same.

    Then you responded "Correct" to Meg's comment.  So in the line of context, her comment was NOT correct, even if you hold to the bogus Salza & Siscoe thesis.  My intent is not to argue about the S&S position, however.  It's to find fault with several aspects of this particular video:

    1) Saying that the Bishops can/must excommunicate a pope.
    2) Claiming that The Resistance Bishops are "the only TRUE Catholic bishops".
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #24 on: January 18, 2023, 11:30:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 18, 2023, 11:27:11 AM
    Then you responded "Correct" to Meg's comment.  So in the line of context, her comment was NOT correct, even if you hold to the bogus Salza & Siscoe thesis.

    If you scroll back up, you'll see the quote from Meg I responded to was:

    "There must be some kind of judgment from the hierarchy in order to carry out a legitimate sentence on the charge of heresy of a Pope. That's just common sense."

    It was to this that I responded:

    "Correct:

    By divine law, the pope is above and immune from coercive judgment, but not discretionary judgment.

    For more on this distinction of St. Bellarmine, Bossuet, et al. on the two forms of judgment, see here (scroll halfway down to the section heading titled “The Key Distinction Sedevacantists Have Missed:
    Two Forms of Judgment - Discretionary & Coercive”):

    http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/the-true-meaning-of-bellarmines-ipso.html?m=1"

    There is no mention of excommunicating a pope (which would be a coercive, not discretionary judgment).

    PS: I never even watched the video.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Intro to the Resistance: SSPX Brand New
    « Reply #25 on: January 18, 2023, 11:34:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 18, 2023, 11:30:43 AM
    If you scroll back up, you'll see the quote from Meg I responded to was:

    "There must be some kind of judgment from the hierarchy in order to carry out a legitimate sentence on the charge of heresy of a Pope. That's just common sense."

    There is no mention of excommunicating a pope.

    Yeah, you may have been just seeing her comment in isolation, but I was looking at it in context of what she was responding to.  Fair enough.
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