Author Topic: Interesting thoughts of Bishop Williamson (Read 3911 times)

Machabees · « **on:** November 04, 2012, 10:28:11 PM »

From Eleison Comments - AND NOW ?

Quote

In brief, I think that the situation of today’s Catholic Resistance calls for no hurried action, but for a thoughtful measuring of men and events until the will of God becomes more clear. I think -- I may be wrong -- that he wants a loose network of independent pockets of Resistance, gathered around the Mass, freely contacting one another, but with no structure of false obedience such as served to sink the mainstream Church in the 1960’s, and is now sinking the Society of St Pius X. If you agree, by all means make contributions to the St Marcel Initiative because they will certainly come in useful, maybe sooner than I think. For myself, as soon as my situation stabilizes in England, I am ready to put my bishop’s powers at the disposal of whoever can make wise use of them.

These are some profound thoughts.

“A loose network of independent pockets of Resistance”:

•   History shows that when the Church is, or about to be, persecuted, the Good God prepares a “Catacomb” to protect it.
•   This “loose” network is hard to bring down.
•   This network is already in seed/established –needing a Bishop.
•   The faith can be preserved in an all-out bloody persecution than it would be if it was in a “visibly condensed” institution.
•   Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

Any other insights on this?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #1 on:** November 05, 2012, 08:29:56 AM »

You have quotation marks around the following sentence but no reference. If this
is something he's "said many times before," you ought to be capable to provide
two or three references, with dates and verifiable data. If there are no such
sources to be found, then you should not be using quotation marks:

Quote

• Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

So the crucifixion of Christians in Japan and in Sudan and the largest number of
martyrs worldwide in any one century (20th) doesn't mean "drawn blood yet?"

Even in the United States, the friends of Father Alfred Joseph Kunz would have an
observation in stark contrast to this "quote" of the Bishop.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #2 on:** November 05, 2012, 09:19:30 AM »

Quote from: Machabees

From Eleison Comments - AND NOW ?

Quote

In brief, I think that the situation of today’s Catholic Resistance calls for no hurried action, but for a thoughtful measuring of men and events until the will of God becomes more clear. I think -- I may be wrong -- that he wants a loose network of independent pockets of Resistance, gathered around the Mass, freely contacting one another, but with no structure of false obedience such as served to sink the mainstream Church in the 1960’s, and is now sinking the Society of St Pius X. If you agree, by all means make contributions to the St Marcel Initiative because they will certainly come in useful, maybe sooner than I think. For myself, as soon as my situation stabilizes in England, I am ready to put my bishop’s powers at the disposal of whoever can make wise use of them.

These are some profound thoughts.

“A loose network of independent pockets of Resistance”:

•   History shows that when the Church is, or about to be, persecuted, the Good God prepares a “Catacomb” to protect it.
•   This “loose” network is hard to bring down.
•   This network is already in seed/established –needing a Bishop.
•   The faith can be preserved in an all-out bloody persecution than it would be if it was in a “visibly condensed” institution.
•   Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

Any other insights on this?

My first thought is, "How will such a network perpetuate itself and tradition? Where will new priests come from? Or bishops?" Bishop Williamson has yet to address those issues. The plan he has revealed so far is OK for the present, but the things I mention would have to be addressed at some point too. I'm sure His Excellency knows that though.

Marlelar · « **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2012, 10:24:12 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

You have quotation marks around the following sentence but no reference. If this
is something he's "said many times before," you ought to be capable to provide
two or three references, with dates and verifiable data. If there are no such
sources to be found, then you should not be using quotation marks:

Quote

• Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

So the crucifixion of Christians in Japan and in Sudan and the largest number of
martyrs worldwide in any one century (20th) doesn't mean "drawn blood yet?"

Even in the United States, the friends of Father Alfred Joseph Kunz would have an observation in stark contrast to this "quote" of the Bishop.

But there hasn't been an organized, large scale assault on the Traditional Catholic faith yet.

Where did you get your figure for stating that the 20th century had the most martyrs? Verifiable data for this would be appreciated also.

As far as I know no Christians are being martyred in Japan as of now. The last large scale purge happened in the early 17th century, not the 20th. But I would like to know if/when it did in the 20th century.

Marsha

Quo Vadis Petre · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2012, 10:27:50 AM »

Marsha, you forget the Communist persecutions, and the Mexican Cristeros, and about more a than a decade ago, the persecutions in East Timor.

Maria Elizabeth · « **Reply #5 on:** November 05, 2012, 01:51:29 PM »

In one of Bishop Williamson's videos, he states that Our Lord has allowed the shake up of the SSPX in order to prepare us for the strife to come.

... So, it seems as if he is anticipating persecution of Catholics in the "near" future.

As for seminaries...
- I seem to remember someone saying there is a traditional seminary in South America that is loyal to Bishop Williamson. (For the Spanish speakers.)
- Also, aren't the Dominicans of Avrille, France loyal to Bishop Williamson? I seem to remember that they have a seminary. (This would work for French speakers.)
- As for a seminary for English speakers, I'm sure Our Lord will send candidates to Bishop Williamson, just like He sent candidates to Archbishop Lefebvre.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2012, 04:16:25 PM »

The persecution of the Church has been here . Vatican II ..

The unproductive discussions with Rome which in realitiy was a divertion from the sɛҳuąƖ abuse and other scandals within Vatican II and Jєωιѕн world congress. If Rome wanted to restore tradition they would have utilized fssp and christ institute before closing down churches and schools.

And the persecution of sspx with expulsions of good and holy priests and belittling of holy people during these speak up sessions is here.

Already holy people who defend the Faith are being denied communion while the same time vatican II novus ordo female eucharistic minister gives communion to lesbian budist. The priest who denied to communion to same lesbian budist was expelled from DC.

Stubborn · « **Reply #7 on:** November 05, 2012, 07:10:10 PM »

Quote from: Machabees

From Eleison Comments - AND NOW ?

Quote

In brief, I think that the situation of today’s Catholic Resistance calls for no hurried action, but for a thoughtful measuring of men and events until the will of God becomes more clear. I think -- I may be wrong -- that he wants a loose network of independent pockets of Resistance, gathered around the Mass, freely contacting one another, but with no structure of false obedience such as served to sink the mainstream Church in the 1960’s, and is now sinking the Society of St Pius X. If you agree, by all means make contributions to the St Marcel Initiative because they will certainly come in useful, maybe sooner than I think. For myself, as soon as my situation stabilizes in England, I am ready to put my bishop’s powers at the disposal of whoever can make wise use of them.

These are some profound thoughts.

“A loose network of independent pockets of Resistance”:

•   History shows that when the Church is, or about to be, persecuted, the Good God prepares a “Catacomb” to protect it.
•   This “loose” network is hard to bring down.
•   This network is already in seed/established –needing a Bishop.
•   The faith can be preserved in an all-out bloody persecution than it would be if it was in a “visibly condensed” institution.
•   Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

Any other insights on this?

IMO, and it is nothing more than that, I think the Bishop's words might have been better understood had he said: ".......that he wants a loose network of independent pockets of ~~Resistance~~ Faithful, gathered around the Mass, freely contacting one another, but with no structure of false obedience.........."

I say this because that is precisely how the SSPX was started - with one faithful priest, and an extremely loose network of faithful Catholics who met in stranger's basements, "gathered around the Mass".

There was not really any "Resistance" back then because the NO Machine sprung it's attack largely by surprise - but even if the faithful saw it coming like today, the Machine, being built for swift and complete destruction of any perceived resistance - made the only choice for survival was hiding from the Machine until the number of faithful grew to the point that they could emerge from hiding aka "the catacombs" as the SSPX.

I guess I do not see how being part of an "independent" pocket of Resistance will stand a chance against the NO Machine.

Machabees · « **Reply #8 on:** November 05, 2012, 09:57:50 PM »

In drawing more out of this,

If we consider the aspect of Bishop Williamson’s “loose network of independent pockets of Resistance, gathered around the Mass”, in respect to “life carries on” in a normalcy that we are presently used to, then it is not to coherent to understand (…) as other posts have brought up.

But if we consider it in the context to protect the faith that there may not be a “normalcy” to proceed in God’s mind –as to say, it would be time in God’s mind to call in man’s pride for a reckoning, chastisement, and captivity… possibly likening the Old Testament…

Then this takes on a new line of thought…

Consider in our time, that the world doesn’t care about the Faith; and the persecution(s) still in wait within all of the prophesies that the Church and our Lady had given for our time and the “future”, to be in our generation or the next…

And, today on the threshold of another world war(s) as chastisement to upbraid man’s pride…All wars (regardless of the intentions of men) are a punishment for sin says Holy Scripture…

And, Bishop Williamson speaks about the “Seven ages of the Church” with still a horrific age to be met…

This type of persecution – this type of catacomb to come…

If we speak about measures and proportions, isn’t today’s perversion in every facet of society, as with the (novus ordo) new order worship of false gods taking over the Sanctuary a vast mockery against the True God -that still provokes his wrath- to be measured, in proportion? We have not seen any large scale “blood spilt” from these horrible abominations to those who are responsible. Look at the incredible human drama of the Old Testament… it’s sins against God (minors and majors), it’s idolatry and groves, and the human sufferings that was measured…

As St. Thomas Aquinas writes, God does not change; he is the God of the old Testament and the God of the new Testament.

Our Lord spoke about, “Will there be any faith when I return…?”. This seems to imply, that for what will be left of the faith, it will be of a small “scattering” of faith in the world -possibly, “a loose pocket of resistance, gathered around the Mass…” (Tobias…Machabees…Noah… Abramam…etc.). History repeats itself. The seven capital sins are still the same now as it was in the time of Adam and Eve all down through…

The good thing to know in all of this, God is God, and His mysteries are for our hope and for our meditation…

God knows the hour…He will draw good things out of evil.

It is for us, shown in our catechism, to live in the state of grace, to know, love, and serve god –and let our speech be si si no no…

Perhaps this is a good time to be patient, says Bishop Williamson, and for a thoughtful measuring of men and events until the will of God becomes more clear.

What all this means…?? Perhaps if the hearts of men are cold, the egg cart “is” very fragile. And to fulfill the promise of our Lord until the end of the world, the faith needs to be protected –maybe for us to go through another historic catacomb…

Incredulous · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2012, 10:47:31 PM »

Quote from: Machabees

From Eleison Comments - AND NOW ?

Quote

In brief, I think that the situation of today’s Catholic Resistance calls for no hurried action, but for a thoughtful measuring of men and events until the will of God becomes more clear. I think -- I may be wrong -- that he wants a loose network of independent pockets of Resistance, gathered around the Mass, freely contacting one another, but with no structure of false obedience such as served to sink the mainstream Church in the 1960’s, and is now sinking the Society of St Pius X. If you agree, by all means make contributions to the St Marcel Initiative because they will certainly come in useful, maybe sooner than I think. For myself, as soon as my situation stabilizes in England, I am ready to put my bishop’s powers at the disposal of whoever can make wise use of them.

These are some profound thoughts.

“A loose network of independent pockets of Resistance”:

•   History shows that when the Church is, or about to be, persecuted, the Good God prepares a “Catacomb” to protect it.
•   This “loose” network is hard to bring down.
•   This network is already in seed/established –needing a Bishop.
•   The faith can be preserved in an all-out bloody persecution than it would be if it was in a “visibly condensed” institution.
•   Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

Any other insights on this?

Sounds pratical. Recall that Japanese Catholics suffered 200 years a persecution and organized themselves to survive the hardships without any priests.

The SSPX Resistance could become a federation of mini priories and Mass centers, under Bishoprics spread throughout the world.

The remnant buds that survive the end of the "5th Age of the Church", could bloom into the new flowers of the Holy Roman Empire.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2012, 07:44:02 AM »

Quote from: Maria Elizabeth

In one of Bishop Williamson's videos, he states that Our Lord has allowed the shake up of the SSPX in order to prepare us for the strife to come.

... So, it seems as if he is anticipating persecution of Catholics in the "near" future.

As for seminaries...
- I seem to remember someone saying there is a traditional seminary in South America that is loyal to Bishop Williamson. (For the Spanish speakers.)
- Also, aren't the Dominicans of Avrille, France loyal to Bishop Williamson? I seem to remember that they have a seminary. (This would work for French speakers.)
- As for a seminary for English speakers, I'm sure Our Lord will send candidates to Bishop Williamson, just like He sent candidates to Archbishop Lefebvre.

Maria-

1. I think the person who told you there was a traditional Catholic seminary loyal to Bishop WIlliamson may have been confused. There IS a traditional Benedictine monastery loyal to Bishop WIlliamson, but so far as I know, there is no seminary there, and they have been sending their monks to the SSPX seminary in La Reja, Argentina. Please corrent me if I am wrong.

2. There has been no peep out of the Dominicans of Avrille since before the General Chapter. It seems they were once very much opposed to the practical accord sure to come, and published the great article by the Brazilian Benedictine "Arsenius" in their journal. But note that, after their ordinations were delayed by Bishop Fellay until their loyalty could be ascertained, and these ordinations have now taken place, they have said nothing since. Did they in fact prove their loyalty to Bishop Fellay? This would be the presumption, since that is what Menzingen publicly said it would take before the ordinations would occur. Their continued resistence, therefore, is now improbable.

3. As to your third point regarding an English speaking seminary, let us hope! Bishop WIlliamson seems to leave that up in the air for now. He has said he will make himself available to the resistence priests/chapels. But how the resistence will perpetuate itself without ordinations/seminaries/episcopal consecrations in unknown.

Columba · « **Reply #11 on:** November 06, 2012, 12:54:12 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

Quote from: Maria Elizabeth
In one of Bishop Williamson's videos, he states that Our Lord has allowed the shake up of the SSPX in order to prepare us for the strife to come.

... So, it seems as if he is anticipating persecution of Catholics in the "near" future.

As for seminaries...
- I seem to remember someone saying there is a traditional seminary in South America that is loyal to Bishop Williamson. (For the Spanish speakers.)
- Also, aren't the Dominicans of Avrille, France loyal to Bishop Williamson? I seem to remember that they have a seminary. (This would work for French speakers.)
- As for a seminary for English speakers, I'm sure Our Lord will send candidates to Bishop Williamson, just like He sent candidates to Archbishop Lefebvre.

Maria-

1. I think the person who told you there was a traditional Catholic seminary loyal to Bishop WIlliamson may have been confused. There IS a traditional Benedictine monastery loyal to Bishop WIlliamson, but so far as I know, there is no seminary there, and they have been sending their monks to the SSPX seminary in La Reja, Argentina. Please corrent me if I am wrong.

2. There has been no peep out of the Dominicans of Avrille since before the General Chapter. It seems they were once very much opposed to the practical accord sure to come, and published the great article by the Brazilian Benedictine "Arsenius" in their journal. But note that, after their ordinations were delayed by Bishop Fellay until their loyalty could be ascertained, and these ordinations have now taken place, they have said nothing since. Did they in fact prove their loyalty to Bishop Fellay? This would be the presumption, since that is what Menzingen publicly said it would take before the ordinations would occur. Their continued resistence, therefore, is now improbable.

3. As to your third point regarding an English speaking seminary, let us hope! Bishop WIlliamson seems to leave that up in the air for now. He has said he will make himself available to the resistence priests/chapels. But how the resistence will perpetuate itself without ordinations/seminaries/episcopal consecrations in unknown.

In the middle ages it was common for priesthood candidates receive training as apprentices of working priests instead of attending seminary. These days, it should be possible to compile an electronic curriculum of public domain books and docuмents that could be replicated at not cost. Perhaps a loose network of seminarians could study while apprenticed to a local priest and travel for occasional group seminars. Such a network could operate under ground if that is necessary in the future.

Perhaps a loose network would enjoy greater freedom to explore the oft-suppressed or neglected topic of ʝʊdɛօmasonic subversion of the Church.

sspxbvm · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2012, 04:58:45 PM »

Quote from: Machabees

From Eleison Comments - AND NOW ?

Quote

In brief, I think that the situation of today’s Catholic Resistance calls for no hurried action, but for a thoughtful measuring of men and events until the will of God becomes more clear. I think -- I may be wrong -- that he wants a loose network of independent pockets of Resistance, gathered around the Mass, freely contacting one another, but with no structure of false obedience such as served to sink the mainstream Church in the 1960’s, and is now sinking the Society of St Pius X. If you agree, by all means make contributions to the St Marcel Initiative because they will certainly come in useful, maybe sooner than I think. For myself, as soon as my situation stabilizes in England, I am ready to put my bishop’s powers at the disposal of whoever can make wise use of them.

These are some profound thoughts.

“A loose network of independent pockets of Resistance”:

•   History shows that when the Church is, or about to be, persecuted, the Good God prepares a “Catacomb” to protect it.
•   This “loose” network is hard to bring down.
•   This network is already in seed/established –needing a Bishop.
•   The faith can be preserved in an all-out bloody persecution than it would be if it was in a “visibly condensed” institution.
•   Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

Any other insights on this?

Looks like you hit the nail on the head although we need some more bishops. Bishop WIlliamson's delay on the human level is rather discouraging.

Machabees · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2012, 06:25:31 PM »

Perhaps another consideration:

Bishop Williamson is 72-years old. He is the ONLY Bishop left in the world that did not compromise in any way for some false “accord” with Conciliar/Modernist Rome; his vote was a standing –No!

Bishop Williamson maintained the solid, no compromise with the faith position, than what the others have done in signing their name onto a weakened practical/pragmatic agreement within the General Chapter’s 6-Conditions.

For this, he was expelled out in the dark cold of winter…with hardly a noise.

The Capuchins (Morgon, France), Benedictines (Brazil, and some in France), and the Dominicans (Avrille, France) stood up and said -No- to Bishop Fellay, and were punished for it. These groups have no Bishop of their own.

The largeness of the world needs more strong Bishops…

The faith cannot be bogged down only by the "monopoly" of the SSPX/Bishop Fellay...

Is it possible the “Roaring Lion” of London will consecrate more Bishops in the near future?

It stands to reason -“For myself, as soon as my situation stabilizes in England, I am ready to put my bishop’s powers at the disposal of whoever can make wise use of them.” (Bishop Williamson –Eleison Comments: And Now?)

The faith needs it! The Church needs it! The faithful need it! Even atheism needs it!

Matthew · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2012, 06:37:47 PM »

Quote from: sspxbvm

Quote from: Machabees
From Eleison Comments - AND NOW ?

Quote

In brief, I think that the situation of today’s Catholic Resistance calls for no hurried action, but for a thoughtful measuring of men and events until the will of God becomes more clear. I think -- I may be wrong -- that he wants a loose network of independent pockets of Resistance, gathered around the Mass, freely contacting one another, but with no structure of false obedience such as served to sink the mainstream Church in the 1960’s, and is now sinking the Society of St Pius X. If you agree, by all means make contributions to the St Marcel Initiative because they will certainly come in useful, maybe sooner than I think. For myself, as soon as my situation stabilizes in England, I am ready to put my bishop’s powers at the disposal of whoever can make wise use of them.

These are some profound thoughts.

“A loose network of independent pockets of Resistance”:

•   History shows that when the Church is, or about to be, persecuted, the Good God prepares a “Catacomb” to protect it.
•   This “loose” network is hard to bring down.
•   This network is already in seed/established –needing a Bishop.
•   The faith can be preserved in an all-out bloody persecution than it would be if it was in a “visibly condensed” institution.
•   Bishop Williamson has said many times before “All persecutions end in blood; And we are in the greatest persecution since the time of Genesis, and we have not drawn blood yet” (sobering thoughts).

Any other insights on this?

Looks like you hit the nail on the head although we need some more bishops. Bishop WIlliamson's delay on the human level is rather discouraging.

Um...what delay?

He's been kicked out for all of about 2 weeks. If he consecrated a bishop or two this week, everyone would be B&M'ing that he is rash, precipitous, hot-headed, he had it planned all along, etc.

If you ask me, it's a good sign that he's keeping his head.