Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on February 04, 2021, 11:38:23 AM
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(*Keep in mind that I am talking about the "elite" of the Catholics of today, the so-called traditionalist, and specifically the Catholics that go to SSPX chapels, parents and their children who go to mass every Sunday who but live worldly lives attached to sin.)
It has always been baffling to me how Catholics today that go out of their way to go to a serious mass and undoubtedly valid sacraments, can be so indifferent to the faith in their lives. Why go at all if they live worldly lives and are attached to sin? What a waste of the greatest of all gifts! From my 25 years of experience in these circles, I have concluded that these indifferent Catholics were given tradition by their parents or friend, like an inheritance, and they have no appreciation of what it took to get it or how easy it is to lose. They have no fear of disappointing God. They do not see themselves adulterating the faith, till eventually they stop going to mass altogether. I saw this first hand as a child going to mass in the early 1960’s, all those Catholics lived the same EXACT way as I describe for the SSPXers today, and they all lost the faith completely.
The most important act of one’s life is how they have been living the faith. If one is attached to sin, they will never arrive at the narrow gate that leads to salvation. If one is a male living with a woman, fornicating, has a Novus Ordo annulment (living in adultery), is attached to pornography, exposes himself with pleasure to near occasions of sin (lusting for women) by going to crowded beaches, bars, practices self abuse, uses drugs, drinks excessively....... or if one is a female, dressing immodestly to attract men, going to beaches and bars, having relations with men.... If they are attached to any of those sins, they are living " in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish: because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth but have consented to iniquity. " (2Thes2)
So, the answer is to cleanse oneself of all iniquities in confession with a real priest and do not sin again.
Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)
There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
St. John Chrysostom, Patriarch of Constantinople, Doctor of the Church:
I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein. Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)
They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)
They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)
If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)
My point was spelled out clearly, and it is very simple. In short, if one plays games with God they will receive little from their "system". One can see in all those saint quotes that they are talking about Catholics who go to mass, and even priests, and yet the majority will be lost! Why is that? They all go to mass and yet it is of no avail to them because they are attached to sin. They prefer their sins to God. They are just playing games with God.
Prayer obtains the Grace to stop sinning, only if one is sincere. Scarcely any Catholics today are sincere, I doubt that 1% of baptized Catholics will be saved, if that. Read those quotes by the saints and tell me if I am mistaken.
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I attend an SSPX chapel and I have never experienced one iota of what you wrote.
You are over-generalizing in your sensational title.
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Our Lord's agony in the garden was not because He knew the tortures that were coming, He had no problem with that, what He agonized about was that He foreknew that his sacrifice would be of no avail to the innumerable masses who would reject his gift. He jumped in front of a bullet for humanity, and humanity cared not one iota.
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I attend an SSPX chapel and I have never experienced one iota of what you wrote.
You are over-generalizing in your sensational title.
I have attended four SSPX chapels and have witnessed what he has described (indifference, not living the faith, Sunday only Catholics, divorce, etc.) in various degrees.
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I attend an SSPX chapel and I have never experienced one iota of what you wrote.
You are over-generalizing in your sensational title.
Perhaps Gregory the Great is also over-generalizing about his church:
There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
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I have attended four SSPX chapels and have witnessed what he has described (indifference, not living the faith, Sunday only Catholics, divorce, etc.) in various degrees.
4 out of 130 in the US?
Yeah thats not over generalizing either.
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Perhaps Gregory the Great is also over-generalizing about his church:
There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
No rather he is speculating.
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Perhaps Gregory the Great is also over-generalizing about his church:
There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)
Pope St. Gregory the Great was speaking there in the 7th century from a Church in Rome during a pontifical mass, a Catholic city, a Catholic time. The church is packed with Catholics, and yet he wonders "how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect".
Yet on this thread we have a poster that is basically saying that his chapel is perfect, that none of those things happen at his chapel.
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4 out of 130 in the US?
Yeah thats not over generalizing either.
I was neither over or under generalizing, but just sating my own observation from experience at SSPX priories and chapels. However, if I were to make a generalization I would suspect the Saints are correct, that few are saved. No matter what trad group or non-trad group a Catholic belongs to.
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I was neither over or under generalizing, but just sating my own observation from experience at SSPX priories and chapels. However, if I were to make a generalization I would suspect the Saints are correct, that few are saved. No matter what trad group or non-trad group a Catholic belongs to.
Sorry for my presumption. However I do agree regarding the fewness of the saved.
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Pope St. Gregory the Great was speaking there in the 7th century from a Church in Rome during a pontifical mass, a Catholic city, a Catholic time. The church is packed with Catholics, and yet he wonders "how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect".
Yet on this thread we have a poster that is basically saying that his chapel is perfect, none of those things happen at my chapel.
No one said anything about my chapel being perfect. But its certainly no den of lukewarm adulterers, marginal Catholics, and immoral beasts.
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No one said anything about my chapel being perfect. But its certainly no den of lukewarm adulterers, marginal Catholics, and immoral beasts.
Everyone would have said the same in the 1960's about the Catholic Church that I went to as a child, way before the Novus Ordo existed, and yet today they have all lost the faith.
Perhaps the writer is someone who does not have children and goes to mass and does not get close to others in the congregation? Perhaps he is one that is impressed by the smells and bells and the few minutes he sees the well dressed congregation during mass? In order for one to know people they have to know them outside of those 2 hours at mass. A single person who's only association with the congregation is during 2 hours of mass is not going to know much about those people. Perhaps the person lives in a cold climate where there are no beaches, short shorts, pencil skirts and such signs of worldliness among the congregation?
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Everyone would have said the same in the 1960's about the Catholic Church that I went to as a child, way before the Novus Ordo existed, and yet today they have all lost the faith.
Perhaps the writer is someone who does not have children and goes to mass and does not get close to others in the congregation? Perhaps he is one that is impressed by the smells and bells and the few minutes he sees the well dressed congregation during mass? In order for one to know people they have to know them outside of those 2 hours at mass. A single person who's only association with the congregation is during 2 hours of mass is not going to know much about those people. Perhaps the person lives in a cold climate where there are no beaches, short shorts, pencil skirts and such signs of worldliness among the congregation?
All great points to take into consideration as possibilities, but why assume the worst by default?
You're right that I don't really know too many people in my chapel outside of Mass.
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I have been observing for some time now that many of the new (since the late 1990’s) parents that go to my SSPX chapel, do so because of their children and not because they are seeking the faith and truth. They believe that exposing their children to “religion” will make them good children (and teenagers). In my long experience it does not work that way. The parents have to lead by example, really living the faith. Just going to mass for the children will eventually be seen by the children for the hypocrisy that it is. I saw the same exact thing in the 1960’s when the Latin Mass was the only mass and all the sacraments were undoubtable real. It was not long after that time that the children left the Church and took up the cult of free-love, contraceptives, abortion, divorce, and a life of being passed from one man to another.
It is happening again in my SSPX chapel. It is also happening in the SSPX community in St. Mary’s Kansas, the icon of all SSPX communities with schools from K-12 to college. It is happening in the SSPX schools in Syracuse, NY. All the girls from my chapel that were sent away to SSPX schools in St. Mary’s and Syracuse, all came back wearing immodest clothing (pencil skirts, short shorts, bathing suits, tight jeans) and boy crazy, seeking or having “boyfriends” and “dating”. Setting a bad example for all the younger girls.
The signs are all there for the loss of the faith and the downhill slide to the misery of the 1960’s (“It was not long after that time that the children left the Church and took up the cult of free-love, contraceptives, abortion, divorce and a life of being passed from one man to another”.) It is already happening at a fast pace, three unwed pregnancies, and more to come.
Unless parents and especially priests wake up on see, the downhill slide will continue, it will be the 1960’s all over again.
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I attend an SSPX chapel and I have never experienced one iota of what you wrote.
You are over-generalizing in your sensational title.
So now we know what you are :laugh1:
Why are you on this forum a**hole?
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So now we know what you are :laugh1:
Why are you on this forum a**hole?
The subheader of Cathinfo: A message board for SSPX, Resistance and other Traditional
Catholics to discuss news and matters pertaining to the Catholic Faith.
Also do you kiss your dog with that filthy tongue? Or do you just clean his behind with it?
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The sad irony of your avatar, of a Saintly Peter, who codified the Tridentine Mass.
Yet, you spin for the neo-SSPX, who in recent years has betrayed Catholic tradition, with zionist lawyers, Dutch re-branding, toxic-vaccine approvals and Speed-Masses.
Your a pathetic excuse for a trad,
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The sad irony of your avatar, of a Saintly Peter, who codified the Tridentine Mass.
Yet, you spin for the neo-SSPX, who in recent years has betrayed Catholic tradition, with zionist lawyers, Dutch re-branding, toxic-ναccιnє approvals and Speed-Masses.
Your a pathetic excuse for a trad,
Sadly your type are among those who left the Church during the Western Schism or the other periods of time when the papacy was a scandal such as when some popes had children or mistresses or bought their way into office.
You desire perfection in a fallen world.
Let's wait and see when the time comes that you will say the same things about the Resistance as well.
I'm not a "trad." Simply a Catholic.
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Smacks of Donatism. Is everything only good and perfect among Resistance folk? Why pick out the Society only, Last Tradhican?
Who on earth told you only 1% of baptized Catholics will be saved? You made that up. And if you thought there was a danger of it, why not hand out Our Lady's Scapular, to which She promised the Grace of Final Perseverance, to fellow chapel-goers?
Why not preach, as St. Montfort did, that the solution to some of the legitimate problems you describe, is to pray the Holy Rosary every day, especially 15 decades if we can? As that great Saint taught, we cannot continue always praying the Rosary and always continuing in attachment to grave sin. One will drive out the other. Either we will stop praying the Rosary, or we will give up our sin.
Why not speak about the Eucharistic Jesus, His Precious Blood, His Holy Wounds, the importance of meditation upon His Passion, on devout participation in the Holy Sacrifice, on God's Infinite Love in remaining with us always in the Blessed Sacrament, and of how we injure His Sacred Heart every time we sin, and must be moved to contrition and sorrow for our sins in having offended so gravely His Infinite Goodness? I see a lot of blaming and finger-pointing, but no actual spiritual guidance or helpful solutions from some.
If we wish to be holy, we should frequent the Sacraments, weekly or at least monthly Confession, daily or at least weekly Holy Mass and Holy Communion, a burning love for the Blessed Sacrament and Eucharistic Adoration, and a deep love for God and neighbor. Love for Jesus Christ Our Lord, for His Holy Church, and for the Souls which He redeemed at the cost of His Precious Blood, must be the guiding principle of everything we do. As Our Lady of Fatima told, many poor sinners go to hell because there is no one to pray and sacrifice for them. So what we must do is Consecrate ourselves and all our actions to Our Lord through Our Lady, and strive to do all the actions of our lives for the Glory of God and the Salvation of Souls alone. We ought to say "Jesus, Mary, Joseph! I love You! Save Souls!" very often.
St. Louis Marie Montfort concludes, in explaining True Devotion to Jesus through Mary, “To appreciate the excellence of this motive we must understand what a wonderful thing it is to convert a sinner or to deliver a soul from Purgatory. It is an infinite good, greater than the creation of heaven and earth, since it gives a soul the possession of God... It may well be that at the hour of death a person who has been faithful to this devotion will find that he has freed many souls from Purgatory and converted many sinners, even though he performed only the ordinary actions of his state of life. Great will be his joy at the judgement. Great will be his glory throughout eternity.”
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Wow, Last, do the people at your chapel know how strongly you despise them and consider yourself better than them? And if you don't consider yourself better than them, then why are you condemning them? Why not just look after your own soul?
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You must be the most popular guy in the donut room after Mass. :laugh1:
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Wow, Last, do the people at your chapel know how strongly you despise them and consider yourself better than them? And if you don't consider yourself better than them, then why are you condemning them? Why not just look after your own soul?
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You must be the most popular guy in the donut room after Mass. :laugh1:
Perhaps the writer has no children, daughters? Being a parent is not about popularity.
My posting here is a warning to Catholics at St. Mary's Kansas, Syracuse, my chapel which I have not named, and to any other chapel which is going through the same problems, which I keep repeating happened the same way in the 1060's when all the Catholic churches celebrated the Latin Mass and all the sacraments were undoubtable valid.
If one is worried about being popular, one tells everyone what they want to hear. My purpose is not to be popular but to warn people of the precipice they are walking towards. Just in my chapel we have four unwed pregnancies and there are many more to come.
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I have been observing for some time now that many of the new (since the late 1990’s) parents that go to my SSPX chapel, do so because of their children and not because they are seeking the faith and truth. They believe that exposing their children to “religion” will make them good children (and teenagers). In my long experience it does not work that way. The parents have to lead by example, really living the faith. Just going to mass for the children will eventually be seen by the children for the hypocrisy that it is. I saw the same exact thing in the 1960’s when the Latin Mass was the only mass and all the sacraments were undoubtable real. It was not long after that time that the children left the Church and took up the cult of free-love, contraceptives, abortion, divorce, and a life of being passed from one man to another.
It is happening again in my SSPX chapel. It is also happening in the SSPX community in St. Mary’s Kansas, the icon of all SSPX communities with schools from K-12 to college. It is happening in the SSPX schools in Syracuse, NY. All the girls from my chapel that were sent away to SSPX schools in St. Mary’s and Syracuse, all came back wearing immodest clothing (pencil skirts, short shorts, bathing suits, tight jeans) and boy crazy, seeking or having “boyfriends” and “dating”. Setting a bad example for all the younger girls.
The signs are all there for the loss of the faith and the downhill slide to the misery of the 1960’s (“It was not long after that time that the children left the Church and took up the cult of free-love, contraceptives, abortion, divorce and a life of being passed from one man to another”.) It is already happening at a fast pace, three unwed pregnancies, and more to come.
Unless parents and especially priests wake up on see, the downhill slide will continue, it will be the 1960’s all over again.
It would be difficult to see everything that you describe above. I can understand having anxiety about it, because it may not seem like anything can be done about it. Three unwed pregnancies is a lot. I know of one at the SSPX chapel that I attend, but that was years ago. I recall being rather shocked about it at the time.
I don't think that the situation at your chapel exists everywhere though.
Have you discussed the situation with the priest at your chapel?
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Perhaps the writer has no children, daughters? Being a parent is not about popularity.
My posting here is a warning to Catholics at St. Mary's Kansas, ...
I too have tried, and so have others, but with each passing year, error build upon error and the immodesty and worldliness becomes the '"custom". I suspect that only a chastisement will wake up some people but the rest are "awake" but pretend to be "asleep".
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Smacks of Donatism. Is everything only good and perfect among Resistance folk? Why pick out the Society only, Last Tradhican? (I wonder if the audience thought that the saints in those quotes were picking on their particular church when the saints said those quotes to them? And what does it matter if the SSPX is doing better or worse than the Novus Ordo, or sedevacantes, or the Resistance? I just happen to attend an SSPX chapel and I am writing about what I see happening and how it is the same as the 1960's. I can't write about the the Missouri Lutherans, the Anglicans, Novus Ordo, sedevacantes, or the Resistance because I do not go there.)
Everything written below was taught and practiced in the 1960's when the only mass was the Latin Mass, and yet like 90% of Catholics left the Church and lost the faith. Read again what I wrote. If one is not sincere, if one is indifferent to the faith, they will fall. I know many families that go to mass, and do many of the practices below, yet they allow their daughters to dress immodestly, go to the beach in bikinis, wear short shorts.... . Those all are big signs that something is terrible wrong. "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Mat7:21). The reason why they will not enter the kingdom of is because they are playing games with God.
It is the 1960's all over again.
Who on earth told you only 1% of baptized Catholics will be saved? You made that up. And if you thought there was a danger of it, why not hand out Our Lady's Scapular, to which She promised the Grace of Final Perseverance, to fellow chapel-goers?
Why not preach, as St. Montfort did, that the solution to some of the legitimate problems you describe, is to pray the Holy Rosary every day, especially 15 decades if we can? As that great Saint taught, we cannot continue always praying the Rosary and always continuing in attachment to grave sin. One will drive out the other. Either we will stop praying the Rosary, or we will give up our sin.
Why not speak about the Eucharistic Jesus, His Precious Blood, His Holy Wounds, the importance of meditation upon His Passion, on devout participation in the Holy Sacrifice, on God's Infinite Love in remaining with us always in the Blessed Sacrament, and of how we injure His Sacred Heart every time we sin, and must be moved to contrition and sorrow for our sins in having offended so gravely His Infinite Goodness? I see a lot of blaming and finger-pointing, but no actual spiritual guidance or helpful solutions from some.
If we wish to be holy, we should frequent the Sacraments, weekly or at least monthly Confession, daily or at least weekly Holy Mass and Holy Communion, a burning love for the Blessed Sacrament and Eucharistic Adoration, and a deep love for God and neighbor. Love for Jesus Christ Our Lord, for His Holy Church, and for the Souls which He redeemed at the cost of His Precious Blood, must be the guiding principle of everything we do. As Our Lady of Fatima told, many poor sinners go to hell because there is no one to pray and sacrifice for them. So what we must do is Consecrate ourselves and all our actions to Our Lord through Our Lady, and strive to do all the actions of our lives for the Glory of God and the Salvation of Souls alone. We ought to say "Jesus, Mary, Joseph! I love You! Save Souls!" very often.
St. Louis Marie Montfort concludes, in explaining True Devotion to Jesus through Mary, “To appreciate the excellence of this motive we must understand what a wonderful thing it is to convert a sinner or to deliver a soul from Purgatory. It is an infinite good, greater than the creation of heaven and earth, since it gives a soul the possession of God... It may well be that at the hour of death a person who has been faithful to this devotion will find that he has freed many souls from Purgatory and converted many sinners, even though he performed only the ordinary actions of his state of life. Great will be his joy at the judgement. Great will be his glory throughout eternity.” (all
My responses are in bold in the quote. The gentleman who wrote the above quote has no children. I think that if I didn't have all the daughters that I have I maybe would not care about the fate of other parents. I doubt it though.
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It's very sad to see the situation which LT describes, especially at St. Mary's, Kansas. It may serve as a warning, too, of what might be coming to other chapels.
I recall a good sermon that a SSPX priest gave about ten or twelve years ago. He said that when the SSPX chapel first opened up in Minnesota, the faithful who first attended it went way over-the-top in their devotions, because they were so happy to finally have the Traditional Mass and sacraments. He said that they eventually calmed down a bit, but I have to wonder if now the faithful just take the traditional Mass and sacraments for granted. Or maybe their lives are too easy.
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It would be difficult to see everything that you describe above. I can understand having anxiety about it, because it may not seem like anything can be done about it. Three unwed pregnancies is a lot. I know of one at the SSPX chapel that I attend, but that was years ago. I recall being rather shocked about it at the time.
Correction, I had forgotten the newest unwed pregnancy, is is now four. And worse, like I said, I see many more coming.
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Correction, I had forgotten the newest unwed pregnancy, is is now four. And worse, like I said, I see many more coming.
Sorry to hear that. It sounds like it has reached a crisis situation, especially if there's more coming.
Does the priest give sermons on basic moral behavior, according to Catholic teaching? Maybe you already addressed this, and I missed it.
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Sorry to hear that. It sounds like it has reached a crisis situation, especially if there's more.
Does the priest give sermons on basic moral behavior, according to Catholic teaching?
Not once in 10 years have I heard a priest say anything having to do with the way the young girls are dressing and living 24/7. As a matter of fact they had a teacher in the school that regularly walked around the neighborhood after school in short shorts, and they never said anything to her. I think they have been told to say nothing.
Cathinfo's Mr. G, went to St. Mary's Kansas, maybe he can answer your question with regard to St. Marys.
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Perhaps the writer has no children, daughters? Being a parent is not about popularity.
My posting here is a warning to Catholics at St. Mary's Kansas, Syracuse, my chapel which I have not named, and to any other chapel which is going through the same problems, which I keep repeating happened the same way in the 1060's when all the Catholic churches celebrated the Latin Mass and all the sacraments were undoubtable valid.
If one is worried about being popular, one tells everyone what they want to hear. My purpose is not to be popular but to warn people of the precipice they are walking towards. Just in my chapel we have four unwed pregnancies and there are many more to come.
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:laugh1: I have to ask ... do people at your church know that you think they are a bunch of degenerates? Really, I don't understand what you think you are going to accomplish by coming on here amd saying everyone else at your chapel is so wicked. Are you really some sort of saint yourself?
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Sheesh, why don't you just talk to your fellow parishioners like a human being and get to know them and try to be a good example? That might actually do some good. But getting on here and condemning everyone else at your chapel doesn't help anyone, and it actually makes you look a little bit like a pharisee.
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:laugh1: I have to ask ... do people at your church know that you think they are a bunch of degenerates? Really, I don't understand what you think you are going to accomplish by coming on here amd saying everyone else at your chapel is so wicked. Are you really some sort of saint yourself?
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Sheesh, why don't you just talk to your fellow parishioners like a human being and get to know them and try to be a good example? That might actually do some good. But getting on here and condemning everyone else at your chapel doesn't help anyone, and it actually makes you look a little bit like a pharisee.
Well said
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:laugh1: I have to ask ... do people at your church know that you think they are a bunch of degenerates? Really, I don't understand what you think you are going to accomplish by coming on here amd saying everyone else at your chapel is so wicked. Are you really some sort of saint yourself?
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Sheesh, why don't you just talk to your fellow parishioners like a human being and get to know them and try to be a good example? That might actually do some good. But getting on here and condemning everyone else at your chapel doesn't help anyone, and it actually makes you look a little bit like a pharisee.
The writer above is a parent of young adults? He never answered, that is why I asked. And where exactly have I said what my chapel is or specifically what sins are applied to whom? If I wanted to say something to someone in my chapel I would say it directly or pray for them. I have been at the same chapel for almost 20 years and I know everybody, and introduce myself to everyone that is new. My family is an example to the whole world 24/7, that is what Catholics should be. Everything I have written here is a warning to all Catholics and priests. What I write is no different than the saints quotes in the OP, warnings. Are the saints in the quotes Pharisees, are they calling everyone degenerates because they criticize bad behavior?
I have seen this before in the 1960's and I see it happening again. Is it wrong for me to warn parents that they or their are showing all the signs of walking to the precipice of the 1960's "free love fest"?
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In my long experience, I have observed some simple signs, outward signs, indicators that something is wrong with a Catholic. Keep in mind that all Catholics were traditional Catholics in the early 1960’s, there was only the Latin Mass in every detail and 90% of them left the Church. My simple observation has been confirmed over and over again. I will explain it:
There are three types of people that go to mass. Those that are going up (increasing in the faith), those that are going down (losing the faith), and those that are in between, stagnant (no longer going up and not yet falling). The danger to Catholics comes, obviously, from the bad example of the ones going down, however, the ones that are stagnant are also a danger, for they are not good examples.
St. Francis said that as Christ is the Light, as we come closer to Him, it is as if we bring a light closer and closer to us. When we look at ourselves in the mirror, the less light we have, the less imperfections we see, the more perfect we think we are. As we add (receive) more light, we begin to see more and more of our imperfections, wrinkles, scars, pimples, blackheads, pores. In the darkness, we are blind as to what we really are, and as we progress in the faith we slowly see more clearly. When St. Francis died, he was convinced that he deserved Hell, and entrusted himself to God’s Mercy. He knew that he was not yet clean. ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI! Therefore, we all have to seek perfection before God and not just compare ourselves to those in the world around us.
To cut to the chase, (keep in mind that I am NOT here talking about new female parishioners that just came in from the world):
My simple gage that something is wrong is when I see a mother or her daughters coming to mass dressed immodestly (dresses above the knee, pencil skirts, tight form fitting clothing, in short, provocative attire to attract men). In my experience, if they come to mass dressed immodestly, then during the week, they dress just like any female of the world (short shorts, tight jeans, midriff exposed, bikinis…). Unfortunately, it never fails, it is a sign that they playing games with God, and on the inclined plain to eventually not coming to mass and all that follows.
On the other side, are the females that are new, that come immodestly dressed. If they are sincere in their search for truth, their attire will change, sometimes very quickly.
That’s it. It is a simple as that. Catholics have to be an example to the world 24/7, everywhere they go, and especially today, when there are no female examples of Catholics to be found, women are obligated to be dressed like Catholics 24/7. Today, when even Catholic priests and nuns (Novus Ordo) wear street clothes outside of their work!
Parents especially need to be on the alert for these signs in their children and nip it at the bud. For that, parents need to be prepared to explain to their daughters the why's of why a Catholic cannot dress provocatively, and not just reprimand them. The children need to believe in what they are doing, not just be obligated because Mom or Dad said so.
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I agree that modesty is a litmus test for the state of one's soul, which rarely fails or gives a false positive/negative.
Either you are seeking God and living for Heaven, or seeking yourself, your own pleasure, and living for this world. There really isn't any third option.
I also like your post for addressing "newbies to Tradition" -- indeed, if they are of good will, they will happily purge their wardrobe and buy new clothes, once they find out God's will. The ones who put up a fight are living for themselves, not God.
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What LT says is true. A few years ago at my SSPX chapel, Fr. Boyle gave maybe 10 or 12 sermons in a row about modesty, anyone could see his sermons made a noticeable difference in the way the girls dressed for Mass (not sure about outside of Mass).
I normally sit in one of the first few pews and really do not notice how anyone dresses, but I went to midnight Mass for Christmas this year and had to sit toward the back - most (not all) of the girls I saw did come to that Mass immodestly dressed, short skirts, tiny stylish jackets and tight tops - and it was only about 10 degrees outside. I can only imagine what they do at the chapels in Florida. Maybe it's been that way all along in my chapel, but sitting in front you do not really notice it.
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... if they are of good will, they will happily purge their wardrobe and buy new clothes, once they find out God's will. The ones who put up a fight are living for themselves, not God.
Plus, there are good girls and ladies, yet some have a weakness in that they are "followers", so they follow based on peer pressure. If the girls are dressing modestly and they get approval from Priests and men, then they get the courage to dress modesty and feel good about it. But if all they see is immodesty and then the Priests and men approve by their silence or worse, by their words and actions, then they grow weak and give in to dressing immodestly for the sake of fitting in and getting along. So for the sake of these weak gals, both Priests and dad, brothers and all men need to give the ladies of your family and parish encouragement to always dress modestly. There are those who are willing to do God's will, but they need encouragement.
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Not once in 10 years have I heard a priest say anything having to do with the way the young girls are dressing and living 24/7. As a matter of fact they had a teacher in the school that regularly walked around the neighborhood after school in short shorts, and they never said anything to her. I think they have been told to say nothing.
Cathinfo's Mr. G, went to St. Mary's Kansas, maybe he can answer your question with regard to St. Marys.
The last sermon on modesty that I can remember was one of Fr. Beck last sermons before going to Post Falls, Thus it was some years ago. It was his famous "men are like microwave ovens and women are like crock-pots", yet he purposely left out any description of the "standards of Catholic modesty". I have not gone to an SSPX Mass in over two years, but based on reports from those who still go to SSPX, there has not been a modesty sermon since, although there was mention by Fr. Rutledge stating that modestly will need to be improved by the time the new church is built. (Why until then and not now, I do not know?)
Maybe there is a lurker from St. Marys here on CathInfo that has more recent information. Feel free to give any updates.
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Modesty will need to improve after we have secured enough in donations from the rich parishioners so it's safe to talk about without a hit to the pocketbook
That's what that means
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I agree that there’s a problem, I've seen this in various trad parishes over many years. Unfortunately, as we know, it's not a new problem and will probably always be a battle. Here is a passage from, The Hidden Treasure, Holy Mass, by Saint Leonard. I’m sure many here have read this, but for those who haven’t, it’s a pretty impressive.
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I agree that there’s a problem, I've seen this in various trad parishes over many years. Unfortunately, as we know, it's not a new problem and will probably always be a battle. Here is a passage from, The Hidden Treasure, Holy Mass, by Saint Leonard. I’m sure many here have read this, but for those who haven’t, it’s a pretty impressive.
I especially like the example provided in The Hidden Treasure that you posted regarding following the example of St. Elizabeth of Hungary, about modesty and not being distracted during mass.
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For young women and girls, there is no stronger deterrent to any behavior than the disapproval of their peers. Modesty sermons, while necessary from time to time, at best have a temporary effect. The women need to be inspired to desire holy living and they’ll want to dress modestly. The men and boys must be taught to reject immodesty in women. So long as the immodest, forward girls get the fboys’ attention and dates, and the modest, quiet, Mary-like are ignored, any apparent improvement will be shallow, a surface display to placate the priest and old folks. These days, with the Boomer generation becoming the “old” folks, one sometimes sees more immodest and inappropriate clothing among the senior citizens than the generation coming of age.
The last few years I’ve noticed 65 year old women in too tight skirts above the knee accompanied by beautifully and modestly dressed granddaughters! Crazy, no?
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"men are like microwave ovens and women are like crock-pots"
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I don't want to sound naive but I don't think I understand the point of this? :confused:
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LT, I agree with you completely. I have witnessed the same.
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I don't want to sound naive but I don't think I understand the point of this? :confused:
Ay chi huahua! :facepalm:
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Ay chi huahua! :facepalm:
Sorry, but I don't have a crock pot, have never used one, and am not totally clear on their function. A simple answer to my question would have saved both of us some time.
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Sorry, but I don't have a crock pot, have never used one, and am not totally clear on their function. A simple answer to my question would have saved both of us some time.
LOL. iz okay
Crock pots are also called "slow cookers". They take a long time to heat up.
Microwaves are insta heat.
:)
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I don't want to sound naive but I don't think I understand the point of this? :confused:
I didn’t get it either, Yeti. I don’t have a crockpot or a microwave.
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LOL. iz okay
Crock pots are also called "slow cookers". They take a long time to heat up.
Microwaves are insta heat.
:)
You got it!
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Sorry, but I don't have a crock pot, have never used one, and am not totally clear on their function. A simple answer to my question would have saved both of us some time.
Sorry, Incred, I'm not sure what happened to my manners there. ::)
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Sorry, Incred, I'm not sure what happened to my manners there. ::)
No problemo!
Here's the electronics version of the same concept.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.ltetj5B1ctvpYTDXKGB8TgHaEh%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
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This posting from the thread on chaperoning Paradigm Shift - Chaperoning Daughters - page 1 - Catholic Living in the Modern World - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com) (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/paradigm-shift-chaperoning-daughters/) is very applicable here:
If Mothers dress to attract men like described above, to any degree, of course they are not LIVING the faith, and they should not be surprised if their daughter does the same, and ups the ante. This is a big problem even in the SSPX, a big problem. A mother that was living in the world before she got married and then did not really fully convert, or she thinks her daughter will find a good husband using the same technique because it worked for her. This is a big mistake and her daughter will be the one that pays for it. The odds of her daughter finding a husband with her mothers old technique are very slim. A mother who is constantly unbuttoning that one extra button on her top to reveal her cleavage, or wearing jeans and tight tops because "they cover the legs completely and I do not see anything wrong with them" , should not be surprised when her daughter ups the ante.
The bottom line is - Without the Catholic Faith LIVED 24/7 by the parents, any efforts to teach the faith LIVED to their daughters will never work.
Mothers
If you are wearing tight dresses/ pants /tops you are not LIVING the Faith 24/7 and your daughters will pay for it
If you are wearing short dresses, and skirts and slits that reveal a your knees when you sit, you are not LIVING the Faith 24/7 and your daughters will pay for it
The short of it is that you need to dress like a mother, which is what you are, you are married, you do not need to attract other men.
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This posting from the thread on chaperoning Paradigm Shift - Chaperoning Daughters - page 1 - Catholic Living in the Modern World - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com) (https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/paradigm-shift-chaperoning-daughters/) is very applicable here:
Gosh it seems so late in the with everything else going on but I want to respond to you.
I completely agree.
The hard part about this from my own personal experience in a TLM chapel is that the Dads often do not support this.
I know it can go both ways of course.
In my experience, the Dad did not want to be the "bad guy" and refused to take a stand on the dress code with his daughters.
So the wife is left to feel like she is in competition with the worldly women and yet still needs to set the example for her daughters.
In my case I chose my example to my daughters but they saw how they could divide and conquer as Dad would make excuses for their cleavage "wardrobe malfunctions" and mini skirts which he said were not really mini etc.
Many of my friends fought the good fight but Dad didn't give them backing and they had to eventually give up.
Now you have a three way power play and marital stress affects the whole family.
Anyway, at this stage in the game (endtimes) I'm not sure what the best strategy is since we are facing the most incredibly dire straights with the trans agenda etc.
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The hard part about this from my own personal experience in a TLM chapel is that the Dads often do not support this.
I know it can go both ways of course.
In my experience, the Dad did not want to be the "bad guy" and refused to take a stand on the dress code with his daughters.
....Dad would make excuses for their cleavage "wardrobe malfunctions" and mini skirts which he said were not really mini etc.
Many of my friends fought the good fight but Dad didn't give them backing and they had to eventually give up.
There’s a reason for this.
We have a culture of dressing here in America that isn’t based on Trad Catholic dress code standards. Men and Women in the US have been desensitized over many decades from those old fashioned modesty norms from the 50’s and before. So it’s very easy to excuse modern day fashions because some aren’t affected or shocked by them, and in their minds it’s considered ’normal attire’ because they see most people dressed like this every day.
Take yoga pants for example. Who doesn’t see many American women wear these on a daily basis? Not that yoga pants could ever be appropriate, but the desensitization to this level of dress (or lack thereof) is definitely there.
Over time there was a slow boil adjustment to modern American fashion, and many have to undo the years of damage to their minds by it. Most don't even know that damage was ever done to them.
I’m not making excuses for the Catholic fathers failing in their jobs, only explaining the damage that modern American mindset has had over men and women, and that includes clothing and fashion.
We need to pray for each other, because only by God’s Grace can the minds and hearts of all us affected by this begin to heal.
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Gosh it seems so late in the with everything else going on but I want to respond to you.
I completely agree.
The hard part about this from my own personal experience in a TLM chapel is that the Dads often do not support this.
I know it can go both ways of course.
In my experience, the Dad did not want to be the "bad guy" and refused to take a stand on the dress code with his daughters.
So the wife is left to feel like she is in competition with the worldly women and yet still needs to set the example for her daughters.
In my case I chose my example to my daughters but they saw how they could divide and conquer as Dad would make excuses for their cleavage "wardrobe malfunctions" and mini skirts which he said were not really mini etc.
Many of my friends fought the good fight but Dad didn't give them backing and they had to eventually give up.
Now you have a three way power play and marital stress affects the whole family.
Anyway, at this stage in the game (endtimes) I'm not sure what the best strategy is since we are facing the most incredibly dire straights with the trans agenda etc.
I'm baffled by todays SSPX traditionalist fathers that allow their daughters to dress provocatively, allow their daughters to go out on "dates" or go nightclubing and drinking. Are they blinding themselves to what is really happening, or are they so desensitized that they do not see anything bad in their daughters licentious "hobby"? Or have they lost their manhood altogether? My speculations lean toward the idea that the parents, both father and mother, met each other the same way as their daughters are "dating" now and they think they turned out alright, so, they rationalize that their daughter will work it out eventually like they did. In almost all cases it will not work out the same way. Sin is sin, if you play with it, like fire it will burn you. I have seen this first hand in many families and it didn't work out well.
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I'm baffled by todays SSPX traditionalist fathers that allow their daughters to dress provocatively, allow their daughters to go out on "dates" or go nightclubing and drinking. Are they blinding themselves to what is really happening, or are they so desensitized that they do not see anything bad in their daughters licentious "hobby"? Or have they lost their manhood altogether? My speculations lean toward the idea that the parents, both father and mother, met each other the same way as their daughters are "dating" now and they think they turned out alright, so, they rationalize that their daughter will work it out eventually like they did. In almost all cases it will not work out the same way. Sin is sin, if you play with it, like fire it will burn you. I have seen this first hand in many families and it didn't work out well.
I think that the above behavior by the parents can only happen because of some other sins that keep the parents from receiving the grace to persevere over the world and its master Satan. "Without Me, you can do nothing" (John 15:5). The parents do not have God's grace to persevere because of some other sins. All of the above and this comment now, applies also to spiritual fathers, to priests.
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I'm baffled by todays SSPX traditionalist fathers that allow their daughters to dress provocatively, allow their daughters to go out on "dates" or go nightclubing and drinking. Are they blinding themselves to what is really happening, or are they so desensitized that they do not see anything bad in their daughters licentious "hobby"? Or are have they lost their manhood? My speculations lean toward the idea that the parents, both father and mother, met each other the same way as their daughters are "dating" now and they think they turned out alright, so, they rationalize that their daughter will work it out eventually like they did. In almost all cases it will not work out the same way. Sin is sin, if you play with it, like fire it will burn you. I have seen this first hand in many families and it didn't work out well.
Some certainly have lax consciences, but others (I know from speaking to them), have just given in, having gotten to the point where they feel that if they come down hard on their daughters, then the daughters will reject the faith entirely. Once girls have gotten to the point of not caring, or of caring so little about morality and the faith, that they would behave and dress as they do, then often they're at the point where if they had to choose between persisting in their behavior and remaining Catholic, they would go with the former. So it's their parents' last-gasp desperate attempt to keep them at least nominally in the Church, with the implicit mentality of thinking it's better that they be bad Catholics than non-Catholics. They could try to "come down hard" on them, but their perspective is that, if they did, it would build such resentment that the second these girls saw a chance to become independent of them, they would immediately go run off and shack up with some guy, leaving the Church in the rear-view mirror. I think that some of them have a legitimate point. I'm guessing they could have done more to keep it from getting to that point, but I leave it to God to judge them. I've known some kids in home-schooled families who had little or no exposure to the outside world and lived completely immersed in a Catholic mindset and detached from the world, who the minute they got jobs and could support themselves, they ran off, shacked up, and stopped practicing the faith. Sometimes when the kids are somewhat isolated and lonely, all it takes is for some cute boy to come along and start "buttering them up" before they turn into putty in some non-Catholic's hands.
At the end of the day, it's not enough to impose BEHAVIOR. Kids have to embrace the principles of the faith and of Catholic morality interiorly. You can say, "So long as you live in my house, you'll never dress immodestly." But what happens when they no longer live in the house? Only through grace, through prayers, and ultimately through a cooperation of FREE will, will children ultimately continue in living the faith. Imposing behavior works for little ones who haven't reached the age of reason. Once they've reached the age of reason, they must be persuaded to embrace the principles of the faith and not merely made to act as if they do.
To that end, probably the best way to do that is to make sure that the children do a decent amount of GOOD SPIRITUAL READING as they grow up. And I do find that there's a massive shortage of good spiritual reading for children of the in-between ages, from about 9-13 or so. There are childrens' books about the faith targeted at kids about 5-7 years old, and then there's a big gap, and a jump up to things that are complex and difficult to read if you're not about 13 or 14. Take the lives of the saints, for instance. You can find books with little pictures written for 3, 4, and 5 year olds, but then the material jumps up to adult reading. And, ironically, that time between when they first reach the age of reason until their teens are the MOST CRUCIAL and FORMATIVE of all the ages. That's where kids are either won over to the faith or lost ... practically speaking since God's grace of course has no such limits. I have thought about writing some books targeting that age range, but I haven't had the time given my duties in life.
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ironically, that time between when they first reach the age of reason until their teens are the MOST CRUCIAL and FORMATIVE of all the ages. That's where kids are either won over to the faith or lost ...
Yes that has been exactly my observation. "to God the joy of my youth". In my long experience, if the parents do not LIVE the faith, when the children are old enough to go on their own, they will. It is too late then. This is why it is so sad when I see SSPX girls 10 years old already using makeup and wearing short dresses to mass. I know that they are lost, even at that age. even sadder is that the parents and priests see nothing wrong.
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From the Mailbag:
When Frs Hewko and Voigt were here, we spoke about the same things. We do not have a girls dorm here in Syracuse. Girls of high school age may come here and board with a few select families. Each of these families provide the girls with a very modest and morally traditional home life. There is no fraternization allowed at school - the Academy is segragated by gender and the high school boys and girls do not even pass in the hallways during school. All extra-curricular activities are gender exclusive.
What we do see is a slacking and relaxing of dress, etc, when students go home for seasonal and summer breaks where they are frequently allowed access to electronics and perhaps, more permissive dress codes. Anyone who sends their children to a school with the expectation that they will be converted from a modern lifestyle regardless of the environment and friends they return to at home are sadly mistaken. The same is true for those who attend the various Dominican schools. What is not practiced at home is soon lost.
I have seen alumni return to visit in clothing that would never have been acceptable at school and the priests are consistently up-front and clear and non-tolerant in those situations. So, from first hand experience, I would take issue with the inference that an otherwise morally traditional girl would return a boy-crazy, jeans-wearing girl by virtue of the fact of where she attended high school. The answer, in this case, lies much closer to home.
V.F.
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When Frs Hewko and Voigt were here, we spoke about the same things. We do not have a girls dorm here in Syracuse. Girls of high school age may come here and board with a few select families. Each of these families provide the girls with a very modest and morally traditional home life. There is no fraternization allowed at school - the Academy is segragated by gender and the high school boys and girls do not even pass in the hallways during school. All extra-curricular activities are gender exclusive.
What we do see is a slacking and relaxing of dress, etc, when students go home for seasonal and summer breaks where they are frequently allowed access to electronics and perhaps, more permissive dress codes. Anyone who sends their children to a school with the expectation that they will be converted from a modern lifestyle regardless of the environment and friends they return to at home are sadly mistaken. The same is true for those who attend the various Dominican schools. What is not practiced at home is soon lost.
I have seen alumni return to visit in clothing that would never have been acceptable at school and the priests are consistently up-front and clear and non-tolerant in those situations. So, from first hand experience, I would take issue with the inference that an otherwise morally traditional girl would return a boy-crazy, jeans-wearing girl by virtue of the fact of where she attended high school. The answer, in this case, lies much closer to home.V.F.
It is good that they see the problem of immodest dress and behavior and they talk about it. That is not the case with the priests or the parents in my chapel (and according to Cathinfo's Mr. G, not the case in St. Mary's), where not a word has been spoken on the subject in 10+ years of decline.
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It is good that they see the problem of immodest dress and behavior and they talk about it. That is not the case with the priests or the parents in my chapel (and according to Cathinfo's Mr. G, not the case in St. Mary's), where not a word has been spoken on the subject in 10+ years of decline.
The chapel I attend- it has not been discussed for many years. We do have a sign posted but not a word, otherwise. I wish something would be said.
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I know an Independent priest who would mention it from the pulpit. After that, things improved ... for a short time. Then, within a few weeks, things slid back. So he'd mention it again. At some point, he partly just gave up.