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Author Topic: Independent Priests  (Read 273 times)

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Independent Priests
« on: Yesterday at 12:11:26 PM »
Independent priests

I want to put a few thoughts out there on independent priests because there is a lot of confusion about this issue.

In normal jurisdiction a priest has a Bishop and/or religious superior to which he give obedience. This ordinary jurisdiction was put there for a good reason by Our Lord.

Today since Vatican II, we are operating under supplied/emergency jurisdiction. This jurisdiction was normally used for times where priests and bishops found themselves in situations where they could not get access to superiors.

Catholics in India and Lebanon could not get access to Rome for hundreds of years for permissions on things. In missionary territories, priests could go for years without access to bishops. Similar for priests in Gulag camps in Soviet Russia.

However what is unprecendented, as least in modern times, is for this supplied jurisdiction to go on for so long.

To cope with this, as it was such a shock for many in the west to live like this, many have thought that we must contruct hierarchies, groups, seminaries etc. etc. . Like it was in the past. But there are no rules. The only hierarchy we still have in this time of emergency is the SACRAMENTAL hierarchy, which says that Bishops alone can ordain, give holy oils, etc. And only priests can hear confessions, say Mass, not lay people. We do our best to live according to the way things were before the nonsense started.

Bishop Tissier explained one time in a conference that we the faithful call on priests to give us the Sacraments, and we submit to them out of charity, (not justice). It is entirely and freely given.

There have always been priests and Bishops outside of the SSPX and neither Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Williamson condemned them once.

But Bishop Williamson was the one to formulate more clearly after the resistance started his thought process. After the fall of the SSPX which had grown he came to understand that the time for hierarchies and a central alternative hierarchy which the SSPX had practically become was dangerous, and clearly not the will of God.

He described the future of the remnant as being loosely independent pockets. This was plastered on the top of his St. Marcel Initiative for years.

And it wasnt just loose groups. It was independent priests and bishops. He regularly did conditional ordinations of priests on their own and went so far as to consecrate three bishops who were completely independent. He didnt do this to spite the previoius three bishops, nor as some concession to independent priests like they were simple children we pat on the head. He genuinely believed that the were absolutely fine as independent priests and Bishops.

Independent priests and Bishops are not vagus or renegade, but any group operating under supplied jurisdiction is vagus. The only true vagus priest is one who thinks he can be fine on his own without any Bishop to have recourse to for confirmations and ordinations. A priest in theory is able to live by topping up oils, but confirmations and ordinations have to be done by a Bishop, and the needs to abstain from those Sacraments for his faithful if he wants to be alone completely. Which would obviously not work unless he is a monk in the mountains.

I've noticed personally that the people who get so worked up about groups and hierarchy tend to burn out. Sean Johnson, Greg Taylor, etc. etc. I don't see this cultish obessession with it going well. Intuitively this should tell us that its not somethign which is good for us overall. The only way the fool people is by demonising the independence proponents and point to the way things use to be and those of us who maybe lose the faith.

But these things will always happen no matter what side you are on. Its a time of apostasy. The close you are to nature and a realistic worldview though, the safer you will be.

If anything what has been lacking in the resistance for the last 15 years is a coherent explanation of why we are the remnant, in a calm way without the theatrics of Pfeiffer or Hewko type folks. And without the insecurity of those who want to latch on to groups or romaticise about 1950s catholicsm.

Re: Independent Priests
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 02:28:29 PM »
I agree that it is counterproductive to create, out of nowhere, a new controversy in the Resistance/Fidelity Movement. We have enough of these already, originating mainly from the Pfeiffer/Hewko imbalanced, imprudent, and uncharitable views. No need for a new crisis.

When a bishop is consecrated, he receives 3 "munera" (3 functions): To Sanctify (by the Sacraments), to Teach (Preaching the true Doctrine), and to Govern (by means of a jurisdiction delegated by the Pope). The Pope names him to rule over a specific territory (diocese). Once installed officially as Bishop of his diocese, the new Bishop, like the Pope did for him, organizes his diocese by delegating part of his jurisdiction to Parish Priests, who will be in charge of each parish in the diocese. All of this is to ensure order and unity, as well as avoiding scandals posed by unworthy priests or people posing as priests. This is why some sacraments (Penance, Matrimony) would be invalid if a priest celebrates them in a diocese without having received jurisdiction from the local bishop. In other words, each priest in the diocese needs to be vetted by the Bishop in order to get jurisdiction. This is to make sure he is a valid and "not under punishment"priest, and that he has sound theological knowledge, before the Bishop allows him to minister to his faithful.

Jurisdiction is not a supernatural power. It is a tool to ensure the proper functioning of the Church, so as to foster the salvation of souls in each diocese. It is the same kind of tool used in civil society.

But, like Bp Williamson said many times: "Authority in the Church must be at the service of the Faith".

Since Vatican II, the power of Governance the Bishops receive at their Consecration, with the tool of Jurisdiction to be able to Govern, has been used by Conciliar Bishops against the Faith. It was granted by the Pope and local bishops to Modernist and in many cases immoral clerics. And it was denied to Traditional clerics BECAUSE of their fidelity to Tradition in Faith and Morals. Jurisdiction became a tool to destroy the Catholic Church.

In the Resistance/Fidelity movement NOBODY has jurisdiction. But this lack of jurisdiction is not any more a cause for invalidity of sacraments, as the Church herself will supply for this lack or normal jurisdiction. This is in order to save souls. 

For instance: Even in the old days, if somebody was in danger of death and the only priest present was one who had been reduced to the lay state, the Church would supply for this Priest's lack of jurisdiction. And normally, if such a laicized priest would have performed a sacrament (Mass, Penance), he would have committed a Mortal sin and be excommunicated, and his absolution would have been invalid. But not in case of danger of death. Because the supreme law of the Church is the salvation of souls.

Every cleric in the SSPX and the Resistance lacks recognition from local bishops and the Pope. Meaning: None of the priests is incardinated in a Diocese or in a recognized Religious Congregation or Order.

Every Resistance Bishop and Priest is therefore a VAGUS. The only difference is that some of them have decided to live together under a specific rule (SAJM, OSB, others). Others live on their own and follow the rules of Canon Law and traditional customs as much as they can.

BUT ALL OF THEM ARE "VAGRANT".

Therefore, let us stop this controversy!

The Church has been infiltrated by Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and taken over. Then the SSPX was infiltrated and taken over by liberals. Bishop Williamson feared that a new Congregation of the Resistance would be targeted, infiltrated, and taken over. This is why he advocated,following Father Calmel, for the creation of independent but friendly Bastions working together.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Independent Priests
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 03:25:28 PM »
Every cleric in the SSPX and the Resistance lacks recognition from local bishops and the Pope. Meaning: None of the priests is incardinated in a Diocese or in a recognized Religious Congregation or Order.

Every Resistance Bishop and Priest is therefore a VAGUS. The only difference is that some of them have decided to live together under a specific rule (SAJM, OSB, others). Others live on their own and follow the rules of Canon Law and traditional customs as much as they can.

BUT ALL OF THEM ARE "VAGRANT".

Therefore, let us stop this controversy!
Exactly.  1000%.  People just use the term “vagus” and don’t even know what it means.  Every single Trad cleric is vagus.  

Re: Independent Priests
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 11:04:44 PM »
Let me try to understand and interpret your positions that appear to be aligned :confused:

When Cardinal Siri was deposed from his rightful papal Seat in 1958 as Pope Gregory XVII, and shortly after, as the modernist infiltration accelerated, all the traditional clerics of the Church became vagi. 
That's what your saying, right?

In other words, after the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, satanist-jew achieved a papal coup d'e'tat... it was all over.
 
Everyone lost jurisdiction cause they were eventually... thrown out of newChurch onto the street.



But priests with proper Holy orders, who still maintained the Faith and proper Liturgy (Quo Primum Mass) is where the Church remained.  Do you agree?

Or do you think the Bugnini/Montini 62' mass is good enough?

Maybe you think Siri was bogus and Montini was the valid pope and the Church the Holy See remained with him?

And do you maintain that within the Trad ranks there are not priests who lack obedience, by choice, disagreement or some other circuмstance and break from fraternal formation with the different groups of Holy orders of the Catholic remnant?


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Independent Priests
« Reply #4 on: Today at 12:09:31 AM »
You’re overcomplicating it.  All Trad priests (and bishops) lack jurisdiction (and the related authority that comes with it).  Yes, Trad clerics have supplied jurisdiction, but that is only related to mass/sacraments (which canon law allows). 

No Trad cleric has ANY supplied jurisdiction when it comes to authority (ie being a religious superior or being a pastor of a diocese).  No Trad cleric (priest or bishop) is connected to any religious order (properly authorized by Rome, with vows, and true obedience).  No Trad cleric has any connection with any apostolic authority inherent in a diocese or similar canonical area.

Every single Trad cleric is vagus, using the church’s definition because they have ZERO authority.  They have ZERO connection to Rome's authority structure.  Trads are surviving in the canon law wilderness.  That’s reality.