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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 26159 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Viganò seemingly backtracks on Vatican II stance.
« Reply #230 on: July 04, 2020, 06:45:51 AM »
Quote from: St.Patrick on July 04, 2020, 03:32:00 AM
Valid pastoral council?


A council of the Church that is approved by a pope is still infallible no matter what nuanced title you give it. VII Contains error, thus.......
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Viganò seemingly backtracks on Vatican II stance.
« Reply #231 on: July 04, 2020, 06:47:16 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on July 04, 2020, 06:11:24 AM

Thank you.  At least I'm not the only one who got the impression that he's backtracked on his Vatican II stance.  

I agree he's backtracked, but only in the sense that the inevitable conclusion of what he had been saying was that V2 was not a valid ecuмenical council, and the necessary corollary that Paul VI could not be a valid pope.

But he never asserted that "necessary" conclusion - many of us just assumed he would because of the logical necessity of the position he took in light of traditional Catholic teaching on ecuмenical councils, the pope and the Church's indefectibility.

Sadly, it seems he's not squarely addressing those logical consequences. He says:


Quote
I have never thought and even less have I affirmed that Vatican II was an invalid Ecuмenical Council: in fact it was convoked by the supreme authority, by the Supreme Pontiff, and all of the Bishops of the world took part in it. Vatican II is a valid Council, supported by the same authority as Vatican I and Trent. However, as I have already written, from its origin it was made the object of a grave manipulation by a fifth column that penetrated into the very heart of the Church that perverted its purposes, as confirmed by the disastrous results that are before everyone’s eyes.

Remember, as to this "grave manipulation," it resulted in (as he said previously) an ecuмenical council, ratified by a successor of Peter as pope, taught to the Church and world in Dignitatis Humanae a form of religious liberty that "contradict[ed] the testimony of Sacred Scripture and the voice of Tradition, as well as the Catholic Magisterium which is the faithful guardian of both."  Whereas, Catholic doctrine says that can't happen.  

If we are to "hold to tradition," we need a better answer than the council was "grave[ly] manipulated." Uh . . . we know that.

And we ask, "how can that happen"? The lack of a credible response damages the faith.
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Viganò seemingly backtracks on Vatican II stance.
« Reply #232 on: July 04, 2020, 06:47:59 AM »
Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on July 04, 2020, 06:45:51 AM

A council of the Church that is approved by a pope is still infallible no matter what nuanced title you give it. VII Contains error, thus.......
And as I posted in the other thread, it *is* an ecuмenical council:

Ecuмenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians. A council, Ecuмenical in its convocation, may fail to secure the approbation of the whole Church or of the pope, and thus not rank in authority with Ecuмenical councils. Such was the case with the Robber Synod of 449 (Latrocinium Ephesinum), the Synod of Pisa in 1409, and in part with the Councils of Constance and Basle.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #233 on: July 04, 2020, 06:51:48 AM »
Quote from: Struthio on July 04, 2020, 06:43:27 AM

This or a similar statement can be found below each of the 1960s Robber Council's docuмents. In his letter to Dr. Guarini, Viganò has said that these docuмents contain heretical propositions.

The ca. 2440 fathers of the Robber Council have proposed a false Gospel in the name of the Holy Spirit to the whole Church, and consequently condemned themselves.


All the talk about fallibe or infallible, ordinary or extraordinary Magisterium is vain. Heretics don't need an office or the charism of infallibility to condemn themselves.

Dismissing the Council's docuмents for heresy implies the declaration that those adhering to the docuмents, were/are heretics.


stjosef.at

Exactly so. The presumption from manifest heresy in the external forum, and the logical conclusion. Those men had to know what they contradicted (Vigano's own words) - Quanta Cura, etc. 
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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Viganò seemingly backtracks on Vatican II stance.
« Reply #234 on: July 04, 2020, 07:02:46 AM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on July 04, 2020, 06:47:59 AM
And as I posted in the other thread, it *is* an ecuмenical council:

Ecuмenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians. A council, Ecuмenical in its convocation, may fail to secure the approbation of the whole Church or of the pope, and thus not rank in authority with Ecuмenical councils. Such was the case with the Robber Synod of 449 (Latrocinium Ephesinum), the Synod of Pisa in 1409, and in part with the Councils of Constance and Basle.
Of course, but sometimes (and unfortunately) people hate to face reality.
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