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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13307 times)

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Offline donkath

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #210 on: June 18, 2020, 04:37:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 17, 2020, 11:37:18 PM
    donkath, I was thinking about posting the whole five books of Bellarmine De Romano Pontifice, to prove my point. I didn't.

    Without further reasoning or ado: Could you please post some 20-30 lines of Wathen as a here relevant teaser in case you want me to read some of the epic workmanship of his. I am not sure what you're commenting on, please just forget this comment in case it's inapplicable.

    Struthio, all I can say is that there are several conversations going on here and on other threads at the moment about heretics/manifest/material/other....and it is quite coincidental that I am reading a lot of Father Weathen's work over and over He always gets through to me.  He is a great priest and scholar and puts things in such a way that simple pewsitters like moi can grasp clearly what he is saying.  Whether I am imagining it or not it seems to me if people understood the basic teaching on the infallibility of the pope, it would provide a solid basis upon which to think about the matters currently under discussion wherever.   So when a discussion is operating I post something that I am reading at that time and hope it helps.

    But I think to answer your question it is the opening paragraphs that pretty well say everything.  For instance, look at the words: It is not so simple as that, however, though it really ought to be......
    Fr. Wathen just goes on to elaborate to convince scholars I believe who like to argue about words rather than what the spirit is saying so clearly.  Whenever I read anything of his I feel as if I am praying.  And if anybody challenges me to tell them what the spirit is saying, I am afraid that is impossible because it depends on the receptiveness of the person praying and what they are actually praying FOR.   You know, they could be praying for a method to outclass/destroy/humiliate their opposition - who knows? Or even to find fault with the author because they do not like him (????)

     I think that when you are really praying the gift of Understanding kicks in and it is like being a child listening to a beautiful story being told probably by the same spirit that guided the author to write it in the first place.  And I also feel that the author himself is praying for the person who is reading his material which he wrote because of his great love for Our Lord.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #211 on: June 18, 2020, 05:11:18 AM »
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    • Struthio, having said all the above I reassure you I have taken your point.  One should probably stick the subject under discussion.  It is just as I said, I can't help sharing what I have just read when it makes sense to me of what I see posted here online.

    So, I found a teaser for you:   :popcorn:

    It is not inconceivable (i.e., out of the realm of possibility, or, the same thing, contradictory to the doctrine here under discussion) that there ascend the Throne of St. Peter a malicious pope, one bent on the total destruction of the Church, he being faithless enough to think such a thing possible! That even such a one, with such unrestricted and unrestrictable power, with all the help of his similarly-minded appointees, would be unable to succeed in such an effort is guaranteed by the doctrine of the Church's Indefectibility. And the reason even such a one would not be able to succeed is, in fact, papal infallibility itself, as we shall see a little later.

    There is, at the same time, nothing in the definition of the Papacy which guarantees that the Supreme Pontiff could not give sinful commands and permit, or even encourage, the gravest abuses, or raise wicked and conspiratorial men to the episcopacy and the cardinalate, to give them free reign to teach every kind of error and command or permit every kind of misdeed. In a word, there is no divine promise that the pope will not be permitted to use his great authority in the most wicked and destructive ways.

    Such a pope would not, despite any and all manner of unholy action, lose his own legitimacy, nor his all-comprehensive jurisdiction, nor the divine prerogative of infallibility; so that, should an avowed conspirator become the Roman pontiff, were he converted, he might immediately set about repairing the damage he himself had helped to inflict on the Church, without needing to be re-elected and re-instated or re-confirmed in his office; only his private confession and absolution from any censure he might have incurred would be required.6

    ...but I will not get into the debate.  I have am still reading it and understand it as I go along.  I cannot convey that understanding is all.  God bless you dear man and best of luck!
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #212 on: June 18, 2020, 07:09:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 17, 2020, 07:01:21 PM
    Give him time.

    It also could be just a manner of speaking. Whether he's a true pope or not - not! - he's sitting in the chair, and to call him the pope or "general" in that sense could be just a recognition of that fact. For example, theologically or legally  (de jure) it might be an oxymoron it to call the pope a heretic, but it's an accurate description  of things. In fact, that's how the debate is framed, recognizing the titular fact of the man at issue - can a pope be a heretic?

    I wouldn't read too much into that.
    It turns out that this letter was written in response to what appears to be Novus Ordo reader of the Tossatti blog regarding his "Appeal".   It doesn't surprise me that he used the wording he used.   
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #213 on: June 18, 2020, 08:20:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 18, 2020, 07:09:33 AM
    It turns out that this letter was written in response to what appears to be Novus Ordo reader of the Tossatti blog regarding his "Appeal".   It doesn't surprise me that he used the wording he used.  

    Honestly I didn't understand half of what he was saying.  I don't know if it was a weak translation, but unlike the June 9 letter, this was extremely vague and cryptic.  As I have said before, a huge clue for me has been that he keeps calling Francis simply Bergoglio.  There's something going on in his head inspiring him to do that.  In this letter he refers to him cryptically as our commander, but it's very hard to know what to read into that, theologically speaking.  It could mean a half dozen things from a mere acknowledgement that he remains the de facto leader of the Conciliar Church to a full-blown affirmation of his Papacy.  We just can't tell from this letter.  We'll have to wait and see, and hope that his offering of the Tridentine Mass and being enlightened about the errors of Vatican II.

    Of course, the LOGICAL conclusion of his previous reasoning, when laid out in a syllogism, is that Vatican II was not a legitimate Council but, rather a Robber Council.  How he ends up explaining that is key.  So far I think he's stuck in a "mystery of iniquity" apocalyptic mindset ... unsure of how to resolve the contradiction.  He has a couple choices here.  He could either remain in hiding and worry only about his own soul, or he can come out publicly and try to work against these enemies of the faith.  Right now he's in between, where he's staying in hiding but then issuing these letters.  We should pray that he comes out with it and do some good for the Church.  He sounds remorseful for having gone along with the deception all these years, so perhaps his conscience will inspire him to make reparation by coming out publicly and going on the attack.

    I do wonder why he feels the need to hide though.  Is he worried about the gαy mafia putting out a hit on him?  Or is he worried about the Masons that he admits have likely infiltrated the Church at the highest levels?  We'll know in God's good time if He plans on using Vigano to help with the restoration of the Church.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #214 on: June 18, 2020, 08:38:36 AM »
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    • Quote
    I do wonder why he feels the need to hide though. 
    +Vigano's been in hiding, off and on, since 2018, because he exposed the sex abuse going on in new-rome, specifically pointing the finger at Bergoglio.
    .
    https://pjmedia.com/faith/debra-heine/2018/08/28/archbishop-vigano-in-hiding-fearing-for-his-life-after-bombshell-letter-accusing-pope-francis-n101960
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #215 on: June 18, 2020, 09:16:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 18, 2020, 08:38:36 AM
    +Vigano's been in hiding, off and on, since 2018, because he exposed the sex abuse going on in new-rome, specifically pointing the finger at Bergoglio.
    .
    https://pjmedia.com/faith/debra-heine/2018/08/28/archbishop-vigano-in-hiding-fearing-for-his-life-after-bombshell-letter-accusing-pope-francis-n101960

    He must know something about the extent of the gαy mafia and what they can and will do to take him out.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #216 on: June 18, 2020, 09:28:34 AM »
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    • Quote
    He must know something about the extent of the gαy mafia and what they can and will do to take him out.
    Yeah, it's all the same group.  The Modernists are luciferians, are commies, are child abusers, are pro-V2, and are gαy.  It's all connected and it's all the same people at the top, who are involved in all of this.  I hope he figured he "outed" them on the abuse issue, so he might as well out them on all of it - V2, anti-Christ, etc.  He surely needs prayers! 
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #217 on: June 18, 2020, 09:38:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: andy on June 17, 2020, 11:48:11 PM
    I have been reading this forum for a while and finally decided to post here as I recall this article https://akacatholic.com/opus-deis-role-in-the-vigano-affair I am sure most of you are familiar with. There are a few more about his connection with Archbishop Nienstedt as well.

    That begs the question, if those past interferences are still in effect?

    Thank you very much for that link. It took some time to read the whole article, time well spent.

    Is this part N+1 of a series of "Opus Dei dog and pony shows" as Engels calls it? I'd say Yes. Probably his more recent publications were written by ghostwriters, too. That would explain the inconsistencies.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #218 on: June 18, 2020, 02:41:20 PM »
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    • donkath, thank you for the teaser.

    Quote from: donkath on June 18, 2020, 05:11:18 AM
    Source: The full rendition of The Great Sacrelige , James Wathen : Chapter two .  The link to the full work has been posted a couple of times on CI.

    I found it there: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-great-sacrilege-pdf/


    Quote from: James Wathen, The Great Sacrelige
    Cardinal Journet explains that the Church cannot depose a pope, no matter how wicked he may be because there is no authority above the Papacy. God Himself must do it.7 If he is a heretic, the Church can declare him “worthy of deposition.”

    The Church's action is simply declaratory; it makes the fact plain that an incorrigible sin of heresy exists; then the authoritive action of God disjoins the Papacy from a subject who, persisting in heresy after admonition, becomes in divine law, inapt to retain it any longer.

    These words do not mean that the Church, i.e., the bishops in council, have the power to deprive even an heretical pope of his office and jurisdiction. They mean that the Church may use every moral means to force his abdication or prevent his acts from causing too great confusion and scandal. [...]

    Bellarmine presents five opinions with respect to the question of a heretical Pope. The third is passed down by (Cardinal Juan) de Torquemada, the name of the author is unknown. It basically is in agreement with Wathen and Journet, though the part where the Church can declare him “worthy of deposition” seems  to be unique.

     

    Quote from: donkath on June 18, 2020, 05:11:18 AM
    but I will not get into the debate

    Fine with me.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #219 on: June 18, 2020, 11:21:07 PM »
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    • Thank you Struthio for the link to The Great Sacrilege.  

    The reason I picked out the teaser is because it has often cropped up that the Holy Spirit will prevent the Pope from saying or doing anything contrary to the faith. It is quite a revelation to see it expressed so clearly that, the indefectibility of the Church prevents already that such a thing is doable.   The Pope has no authority/jurisdiction to command us to sin much less obey him when he so does - such as going against an already infallible Bull protecting the Mass of all Ages.  That you cannot have two infallible statements that contradict each other.*   Most ordinary Catholics do not have the proper understanding of infallibility itself.   For the most part the the Pope is fallible.  As a pewsitter this has never been a problem for me because the Catechism says that we only obey the Pope when he speaks on faith and morals.  For me, that means whenever he deviates from what the Church has always taught he is acting outside his office and is to be ignored.  

    If my choice of words is wrong then I hope you get my meaning.  All the arguing back and forth about what sainted theologians say is very confusing to simpletons like me.  And make no mistake about it I AM a simpleton who nevertheless has learned so much about how the faith operates from this very forum.  As well one gets a good idea of how fellow-Catholics across the whole world are coping or should I say - trying to cope.   God bless you all and thank you.


    * Best check the wording of Fr. Wathen himself rather than my interpretation of it.  On my computer I have a 'find' button that when you open a docuмent you can find a word or phrase to locate the area you are looking for.
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    Offline andy

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #220 on: June 18, 2020, 11:24:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 18, 2020, 09:16:59 AM
    He must know something about the extent of the gαy mafia and what they can and will do to take him out.
    Except, it is impossible to hide and conceal own location these days, given the technology and people tracing. Especially for individuals of that caliber.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #221 on: June 19, 2020, 12:17:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: donkath on June 18, 2020, 11:21:07 PM
    The reason I picked out the teaser is because it has often cropped up that the Holy Spirit will prevent the Pope from saying or doing anything contrary to the faith.

    The opinion that a Pope never will turn a heretic is the first of the five opinions Bellarmine presents. It is by Albert Pighius, a 16th century Dutch theologian, mathematician, and astronomer.

    The work of Journet quoted by Wathen, The Church of the Word Incarnate, was written in 1955, and doesn't seem to be available online, except excerpts, which appear to be the parts pertinent to the "heretical pope" topic. Here a link for reference:

    An extract from The Church of the Word Incarnate
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    Offline Sam Smith

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #222 on: June 19, 2020, 03:28:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 11, 2020, 09:32:52 AM

    This is what the SSPX should have been looking for among the Roman clergy, Curia, and pope:

    An official recognition of the faulty principles of V2, and a rejection of them, and their encouragement and exhortation to the Church at large to reject them.


    But Vigano remains in hiding in fear for his life because he exposed the pedophiles at the top.
    Therefore, Vigano cannot join with the SSPX because they are doing their own coverup of pedophiles in their ranks. They look just as bad as the Vatican right now.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #223 on: June 19, 2020, 04:06:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Sam Smith on June 19, 2020, 03:28:22 PM
    SSPX because they are doing their own coverup of pedophiles in their ranks. They look just as bad as the Vatican right now.
    Perhaps because Opus Dei-funded ChurchMilitant.tv has been focusing so much on them.
    The SSPX has been more transparent than the Novus Ordo.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #224 on: July 01, 2020, 07:42:31 AM »
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    •  Donkath said:
    Quote
    .......I think that when you are really praying the gift of Understanding kicks in and it is like being a child listening to a beautiful story being told probably by the same spirit that guided the author to write it in the first place.  And I also feel that the author himself is praying for the person who is reading his material which he wrote because of his great love for Our Lord.

    I would like to retract this statement.  It assumes that the person is in heaven which is a dangerous assumption to make. One can only pray to a saint already canonised by Mother Church so that the same principle would apply to welcoming the prayers of someone not canonised.   If the author has said something wrong then the wrong spirit would enter into the reader who welcomes his/her prayers.  
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