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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 26175 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #155 on: June 15, 2020, 04:09:53 PM »
Here's Salaverri:

This dispute is due to the error of attempting to apply the notion of material heresy to those who profess false religions, i.e., the claim that Protestants or Orthodox and the like can be "merely material" heretics ... with the equally-erroneous corollary that non-members of the Church can still be within the Church and therefore saved.

I doing so, they confounded the meaning of material heresy, claiming that it could apply to those in formal error so long as they were "sincere" in their error.

Others redefined the term so that material heresy no longer existed, claiming that heresy of its nature can only be formal, while so-called material heresy isn't heresy at all.

In reality, FORMAL heresy pertains to those who do not believe what they believe with the correct formal motive of faith, i.e. based on the teaching authority of the Church.  MATERIAL heresy is the holding of an objectively heretical proposition due to ignorance, THINKING that it was taught by the Church.  FORMALLY they believe the proposition due to the correct formal motive, believing in their ignorance that it was taught by the Church, but they are mistaken about the fact of whether it was taught by the Church.  THAT is the correct distinction that got warped into "sincerity" vs. "insincerity".

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #156 on: June 15, 2020, 04:15:24 PM »
Heresy and error are not synonymous.

Obviously.  I wrote an entire paragraph on this, but heresy is in fact a subset of error, with a higher theological note.  Heresy is always error, but error is not always heresy.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #157 on: June 15, 2020, 04:17:19 PM »
It was obvious to me what Struthio meant. When he said a manifest heretic "may not be a heretic," he meant a public heretic who may not have the pertinacity of will to be culpable as a formal heretic, and may not be a heretic internally if you will, but only exteriorly and publicly.

You also then cling to the erroneous notion of the formal vs. material distinction, where formal heresy is tied to sincerity and culpability, the internal vs. external forum.  This is simply wrong.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #158 on: June 15, 2020, 04:19:01 PM »
Quote
You said it wasn't "logical," which is attacking the very structure of his thought. 

Now, you're saying, "sure . . . but that's not how Bellarmine defines." 

Stuthio was illogical precisely because he was using +Bellarmine's definition in error.  The whole reason I am debating Stuthio is because he is using +Bellarmine's term wrongly, therefore Stuthio's application of +Bellarmine is wrong, therefore Struthio's ENTIRE VIEW OF HERESY IS WRONG.
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Illogical statement =  "A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic."
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This is like saying "Water may or may not contain hydrogen". 

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #159 on: June 15, 2020, 04:22:08 PM »
Father Jenkins calls the letter "earth-shattering".

Yes, I watched this excellent video a few days ago.  Fr Jenkins also brings up his concerns over the Trump letter due to the Naturalism contained in it.