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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13234 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #150 on: June 15, 2020, 03:44:21 PM »
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  • I was obvious to me what Struthio meant. When he said a manifest heretic "may not be a heretic," he meant a public heretic who may not have the pertinacity of will to be culpable as a formal heretic, and may not be a heretic internally if you will, but only exteriorly and publicly.

    If you want, I can quote you Van Nort and probably other theologians who indicate that a public, material heretic is considered outside the Church even if lacking the pertinacity of will of formal heresy is lacking, thus in a very real sense showing a manifest heretic who is yet not a "heretic" in a meaningful sense.

    Thank you, DecemRationis.

    I don't know whether Pax is interested, but if it's not a big deal, I would appreciate if you could quote Van Nort.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #151 on: June 15, 2020, 03:48:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    I was obvious to me what Struthio meant. When he said a manifest heretic "may not be a heretic," he meant a public heretic who may not have the pertinacity of will to be culpable as a formal heretic, and may not be a heretic internally if you will, but only exteriorly and publicly.
    Sure, of course that's what he meant, but that's not how +Bellarmine defines 'manifest heresy', which is the ultimate problem.  He's incorrectly using +Bellarmine's term, therefore he's incorrectly applying +Bellarmine's conclusions and practical applications. 
    .
    Quote
    If you want, I can quote you Van Nort and probably other theologians who indicate that a public, material heretic is considered outside the Church even if lacking the pertinacity of will of formal heresy is lacking, thus in a very real sense showing a manifest heretic who is yet not a "heretic" in a meaningful sense.

    But this is a different argument, because Van Nort doesn't use the term 'manifest'.  Nor does Van Nort think that pertinacity of the will is required, while +Bellarmines says the opposite.  You can't mix-n-match theological terms to create your own heresy theology manual.  It's a very complex topic.  You're just as confused as Struthio.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #152 on: June 15, 2020, 03:52:33 PM »
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  • Quote
    Van Noort, Dogmatic Theology Volume II: Christ's Church, p. 241-242

     b. Public heretics (and a fortiori, apostates) are not members of the Church.  They are not members because they separate themselves from the unity of Catholic faith and from the external profession of that faith. Obviously, therefore, they lack one of three factors—baptism, profession of the same faith, union with the hierarchy—pointed out by Pius XII as requisite for membership in the Church. The same pontiff has explicitly pointed out that, unlike other sins, heresy, schism, and apostasy automatically sever a man from the Church. "For not every sin, however grave and enormous it be, is such as to sever a man automatically from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy" (MCC 30; italics ours).

        By the term public heretics at this point we mean all who externally deny a truth (for example Mary's Divine Maternity), or several truths of divine and Catholic faith, regardless of whether the one denying does so ignorantly and innocently (a merely material heretic), or willfully and guiltily (a formal heretic). It is certain that public, formal heretics are severed from the Church membership. It is the more common opinion that public, material heretics are likewise excluded from membership. Theological reasoning for this opinion is quite strong: if public material heretics remained members of the Church, the visibility and unity of Christ's Church would perish. If these purely material heretics were considered members of the Catholic Church in the strict sense of the term, how would one ever locate the "Catholic Church"? How would the Church be one body? How would it profess one faith? Where would be its visibility? Where its unity? For these and other reasons we find it difficult to see any intrinsic probability to the opinion which would allow for public heretics, in good faith, remaining members of the Church.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #153 on: June 15, 2020, 03:54:37 PM »
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  • Sure, of course that's what he meant, but that's not how +Bellarmine defines 'manifest heresy', which is the ultimate problem.  He's incorrectly using +Bellarmine's term, therefore he's incorrectly applying +Bellarmine's conclusions and practical applications.  


    Give me a break.

    You said it wasn't "logical," which is attacking the very structure of his thought. 

    Now, you're saying, "sure . . . but that's not how Bellarmine defines." 

    Was Bellarmine defining "logical"? 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #154 on: June 15, 2020, 04:02:45 PM »
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  • Here's Salaverri:


    Quote
    b) That merely material heretics, even if manifest, are members of the Church, is argued by Franzelin, De Groot, D’Herbigny, Caperan, Terrien, and a few others. But the contrary opinion is more common.[13]

    [13] Those who include material heretics, even if manifest, in the Church: Franzelin, Theses de Ecclesia Christi, th. 23, pp. 402-423; J. V. de Groot, De Ecclesia, q. 8, a. 3; D’Herbigny, n. 355; L. Caperan, Le problème du salut des infidels (1912); J. B. Terrien, La grâce et la gloire I (1901) 330.


    https://lumenscholasticuм.wordpress.com/2016/12/05/fr-salaverri-on-whether-heretics-apostates-schismatics-and-excommunicates-are-members-of-the-church/#_ftn13



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #155 on: June 15, 2020, 04:09:53 PM »
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  • Here's Salaverri:

    This dispute is due to the error of attempting to apply the notion of material heresy to those who profess false religions, i.e., the claim that Protestants or Orthodox and the like can be "merely material" heretics ... with the equally-erroneous corollary that non-members of the Church can still be within the Church and therefore saved.

    I doing so, they confounded the meaning of material heresy, claiming that it could apply to those in formal error so long as they were "sincere" in their error.

    Others redefined the term so that material heresy no longer existed, claiming that heresy of its nature can only be formal, while so-called material heresy isn't heresy at all.

    In reality, FORMAL heresy pertains to those who do not believe what they believe with the correct formal motive of faith, i.e. based on the teaching authority of the Church.  MATERIAL heresy is the holding of an objectively heretical proposition due to ignorance, THINKING that it was taught by the Church.  FORMALLY they believe the proposition due to the correct formal motive, believing in their ignorance that it was taught by the Church, but they are mistaken about the fact of whether it was taught by the Church.  THAT is the correct distinction that got warped into "sincerity" vs. "insincerity".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #156 on: June 15, 2020, 04:15:24 PM »
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  • Heresy and error are not synonymous.

    Obviously.  I wrote an entire paragraph on this, but heresy is in fact a subset of error, with a higher theological note.  Heresy is always error, but error is not always heresy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #157 on: June 15, 2020, 04:17:19 PM »
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  • It was obvious to me what Struthio meant. When he said a manifest heretic "may not be a heretic," he meant a public heretic who may not have the pertinacity of will to be culpable as a formal heretic, and may not be a heretic internally if you will, but only exteriorly and publicly.

    You also then cling to the erroneous notion of the formal vs. material distinction, where formal heresy is tied to sincerity and culpability, the internal vs. external forum.  This is simply wrong.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #158 on: June 15, 2020, 04:19:01 PM »
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  • Quote
    You said it wasn't "logical," which is attacking the very structure of his thought. 

    Now, you're saying, "sure . . . but that's not how Bellarmine defines." 

    Stuthio was illogical precisely because he was using +Bellarmine's definition in error.  The whole reason I am debating Stuthio is because he is using +Bellarmine's term wrongly, therefore Stuthio's application of +Bellarmine is wrong, therefore Struthio's ENTIRE VIEW OF HERESY IS WRONG.
    .
    Illogical statement =  "A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic."
    .
    This is like saying "Water may or may not contain hydrogen". 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #159 on: June 15, 2020, 04:22:08 PM »
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  • Father Jenkins calls the letter "earth-shattering".

    Yes, I watched this excellent video a few days ago.  Fr Jenkins also brings up his concerns over the Trump letter due to the Naturalism contained in it.  

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #160 on: June 15, 2020, 08:15:09 PM »
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  • Illogical statement =  "A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic."

    No, that's not illogical, Pax. It may appear to be illogical to someone who is not aware of the fact that terminology rarely is perfect or exact. If you haven't had good teachers, you can learn that by attentively examining the use of terminology.

    St. Thomas Aquinas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas".

    So, following Thomas, heresy is a species of infidelity.

    Now, a public or a manifest heretic may be, what van Noort* and Salaverri* call a material heretic or what they call a formal heretic. A material heretic ignorantly and innocently utters heresy. Such a person can't be said to be infidel. Consequently, the material heretic is not a heretic.

    Let me repeat that: A material heretic is not a heretic.

    As illogical as this may sound to the naive reader, it isn't. What may seem illogical, simply is an artifact of the use of a terminology which is less than perfect.


    Conclusion:
    - A material heretic is not a heretic.
    - A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic.
    - If you're not aware of the side effects of terminology, you can't understand theology or whatever area of expertise


    *) see quotes above kindly posted by DecemRationis, thank you, Decem


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #161 on: June 15, 2020, 08:36:43 PM »
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Viganò naturalist, Americanist?
    « Reply #162 on: June 15, 2020, 08:43:23 PM »
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  • Do you deny that "a fervent Pro-Lifer together" or "the most ardent abortionist" can lack the supernatural virtue of faith?

    I shall be sincerely happy to answer your question as soon as I master Our Heavenly Father's trick of seeing and judging the heart beneath fleshly appearances. In the meantime, I invite you to join me in channeling the once-famous singing cowboy Roy Rogers as he warbles "don't fence me in."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #163 on: June 15, 2020, 08:53:26 PM »
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  • Struthio, for the 18th time, I’ll repeat my objection.  You use the term “manifest heretic” in a different way than does +Bellarmine.  Admit that, and you can post all you want about Van Nort or St Thomas.  Just know that both of their definitions of heresy are also different from +Bellarmine’s and yours.  So you’re trying to piece together 4 different definitions of the word “heresy” and that’s why your conclusions make as much sense as a Protestant bible study group. 

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #164 on: June 15, 2020, 09:28:06 PM »
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     Fr Jenkins also brings up his concerns over the Trump letter due to the Naturalism contained in it. 
    And in the follow-up video, Fr Jenkins said that the NEWEST letter that +Vigano wrote, condemning V2, was an answer to almost all his objections to the Trump letter.  Conclusion:  the Trump letter was written for a Christian/Protestant/atheist audience.  The V2 letter was written for a catholic audience.