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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 26155 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #145 on: June 15, 2020, 01:55:36 PM »
You're not honest. I have never even used terms like "manifest error" or "material error".

No, you used manifest heresy.  Is heresy not an error?

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #146 on: June 15, 2020, 02:25:02 PM »
Thank you, Ladislaus, for posting the Fr Jenkins video.  It's good to see rational, sane sedevacantists who can give +Vigano credit for his true statements, who tell others to pray for him, and who aren't rabidly foaming at the mouth to label anyone outside their catholic sphere a heretic.


Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #147 on: June 15, 2020, 02:32:30 PM »
No, you used manifest heresy.  Is heresy not an error?

Heresy and error are not synonymous.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #148 on: June 15, 2020, 03:23:13 PM »
Struthio, you are way confused. First you said this:

A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic.

So if a manifest heretic isn’t a heretic (I cant believe I just wrote that illogical phrase but I digress...) then
.
1) your use of the English language makes no sense,
2) or, your understanding of +Bellarmine’s term is wrong, or
3) the translation of Bellarmine’s term is wrong, or
4) manifest heresy (as you understand it) means a person is in error only, with a decision on their heresy to be determined later (which equals the modern term of “material heresy” which is why Ladislaus correctly used the word “error” as a synonym).
.
I say that it’s a combo of 1, 2 and 4 above.  Factually, 1 and 2 are correct, while 3 is false and 4 is only true subjectively, from your personally flawed understanding.
.
As it is, manifest heresy, as used by +Bellarmine, is not in any way an accidental, simple or confused error, but has the idea of pernicious and obstinate holding to known heresy, nor can it be said that a manifest heretic is not a heretic, nor can it be said that a manifest heretic is still a church member in good standing.  So, again, go re-read +Bellarmine.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #149 on: June 15, 2020, 03:39:59 PM »
Struthio, you are way confused. First you said this:

A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic.

So if a manifest heretic isn’t a heretic (I cant believe I just wrote that illogical phrase but I digress...)
It was obvious to me what Struthio meant. When he said a manifest heretic "may not be a heretic," he meant a public heretic who may not have the pertinacity of will to be culpable as a formal heretic, and may not be a heretic internally if you will, but only exteriorly and publicly.

If you want, I can quote you Van Nort and probably other theologians who indicate that a public, material heretic is considered outside the Church even if lacking the pertinacity of will of formal heresy, thus in a very real sense showing a manifest heretic who is yet not a "heretic" in a meaningful sense.