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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13232 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2020, 10:15:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 15, 2020, 09:29:00 AM
    This is a very theologically imprecise statement and is the root of your errors. You need to do more research about +Bellarmine.  "Manifest heresy" does not mean what you think it does.  It is a canon law term; it does not mean that some "sounds/acts like a heretic".  "Manifest" in this case, does not mean what the dictionary says it means.  It implies perniciousness and other legal aspects.
    .+Bellarmine used the term "manifest" before the material/formal designations were invented.  Over the centuries, various theologians have used all kinds of words to describe the MULTIPLE levels of error, schism and heresy.  You can't just pick a term and use it out-of-context.  If you want to use the term "manifest heresy" correctly, you need to research when and how it was used and then correlate that to when/how the modern terms are used (i.e. material/formal).  That's assuming you want to have an intellectually accurate conversation.  As it is now, you are just using a term haphazardly, and incorrectly.  It's lazy, theologically wrong and (since you're using the term to condemn others) it's uncharitable.

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

    Struthio cannot do this or that, because Pax Vobis said so  :fryingpan:
    Struthio has to do more research, because Pax Vobis said so :fryingpan:


    Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 15, 2020, 09:29:00 AM
    +Bellarmine used the term "manifest" before the material/formal designations were invented.

    You got a big mouth and haven't done any research yourself!

    Quote from: St Robert
    Neque cuм liber definitur haereticus, definitur eo ipso quod
    auctor fuerit formaliter haereticus: poluit enim imprudenter errare.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Viganò naturalist, Americanist?
    « Reply #136 on: June 15, 2020, 10:35:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on June 14, 2020, 07:30:45 PM
    Do you deny that "a fervent Pro-Lifer together" or "the most ardent abortionist" can lack the supernatural virtue of faith?

    Uhm, I have been classified as a Feeneyite, and have long advocated the dogma that supernatural faith is required or salvation.  This does not mean that in the natural world there are no distinctions to be made between the good and the bad.  In fact, it is precisely the monolithic view of hell which would have Joe Stalin suffering the same fate right next to a devout Protestant mother who gave her life to save her children, that leads to the distaste for EENS.  But God rewards natural virtue and punishes natural vice with proportional natural (temporal) punishments.  Similarly, natural virtue can lead one on the trajectory towards receiving and accepting the grace of faith.  That is why St. Augustine spoke of those inside who did not belong to the Church and those on the outside who did, meaning that some who are Catholic will be lost, and some who are not Catholic are part of the elect and will (eventually) be saved.  It is not wrong to speak of a NATURAL division between good and bad in the world.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #137 on: June 15, 2020, 10:40:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 14, 2020, 09:09:37 PM

    A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic. The point is: I should act as if he was one.

    What???  A "manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic"?  That's a self-contradictory proposition.  Please take a Logic 101 class and check back in with us.  If you find a particular OPINION or POSITION to be erroneous, then by all means, reject the position, but otherwise you may certainly not act as if he were one.  It is not for you to arrogate unto yourself the authority to determine who is and is not a Catholic.  So if you were a priest, you'd consider yourself entitled to refuse Vigano communion if he came to receive?  And "manifest" to whom?  To you?  It's manifest to YOU that he's a heretic, but it's not manifest to most Catholics.  So he loses membership in the Church based on your own private judgment, however insane and unhinged it might be?

    It sounds like you're using the term "manifest heretic" as meaning someone who is suspect of heresy.  That is not how St. Robert Bellarmine used the term, since he declared that manifest heretics lose membership in the Church.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #138 on: June 15, 2020, 11:36:34 AM »
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    • Father Jenkins calls the letter "earth-shattering".

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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #139 on: June 15, 2020, 11:46:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 15, 2020, 10:40:11 AM
    What???  A "manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic"?  That's a self-contradictory proposition.  Please take a Logic 101 class and check back in with us.  If you find a particular OPINION or POSITION to be erroneous, then by all means, reject the position, but otherwise you may certainly not act as if he were one.  It is not for you to arrogate unto yourself the authority to determine who is and is not a Catholic.  So if you were a priest, you'd consider yourself entitled to refuse Vigano communion if he came to receive?  And "manifest" to whom?  To you?  It's manifest to YOU that he's a heretic, but it's not manifest to most Catholics.  So he loses membership in the Church based on your own private judgment, however insane and unhinged it might be?

    It sounds like you're using the term "manifest heretic" as meaning someone who is suspect of heresy.  That is not how St. Robert Bellarmine used the term, since he declared that manifest heretics lose membership in the Church.

    Your comment shows that you either didn't understand the quote I have posted, or you didn't read it at all. It starts with

    Quote
    For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one

    and it ends with

    Quote
    they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.

    I suggest that you go back to my post, read it again, think about it, and then post a new comment.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #140 on: June 15, 2020, 11:51:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 15, 2020, 11:46:55 AM
    Your comment shows that you either didn't understand the quote I have posted, or you didn't read it at all. It starts with

    and it ends with

    I suggest that you go back to my post, read it again, think about it, and then post a new comment.

    I suggest that you go back and reflect on the fact that this was an act of Church authority and not your private judgment.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #141 on: June 15, 2020, 12:05:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 15, 2020, 11:51:12 AM
    I suggest that you go back and reflect on the fact that this was an act of Church authority and not your private judgment.

    Can I take this your comment as a confirmation that you finally have understood what "manifest heretic" means? Did you understand that the Church judges manifest heretics as heretics, pure and simple, even if they objectively, in the eyes of God, may not be heretics, but just erring?

    Let me assure you, that I am well aware that I own no apostolic mandate, and that I am able to distinguish between the judgment of (true or false) Church authorities and my own judgment.

    Are you aware, that all Catholics use their own judgment to decide whether they accept V2 or not, whether Bergoglio is a Pope or not, whether they resist an apparent authority or not, etc. pp.? You don't seem to, coming up with the tedious "private judgment" drivel.



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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #142 on: June 15, 2020, 12:14:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 15, 2020, 12:05:00 PM
    Can I take this your comment as a confirmation that you finally have understood what "manifest heretic" means?

    I've always understood the term, but you've made it clear that you have no clue, and then insist on condemning people as heretics despite your crass ignorance of core theological terms.  You have no concept whatsoever regarding the distinction between formal and material error.  You falsely equate manifest error with material error.  This despite the fact that, in the case of Vigano, you can't even produce a single heresy that he holds but condemn him as a heretic anyway.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #143 on: June 15, 2020, 12:17:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 15, 2020, 12:05:00 PM
    Are you aware, that all Catholics use their own judgment to decide whether they accept V2 or not, whether Bergoglio is a Pope or not, whether they resist an apparent authority or not, etc. pp.? You don't seem to, coming up with the tedious "private judgment" drivel.

    Judgments here are being made about material/objective error.  Someone can hold to material/objective error without formally adhering to error, and your failure to understand this is the root cause of your schismatic bumbling.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #144 on: June 15, 2020, 12:25:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 15, 2020, 12:14:35 PM
    I've always understood the term, but you've made it clear that you have no clue, and then insist on condemning people as heretics despite your crass ignorance of core theological terms.  You have no concept whatsoever regarding the distinction between formal and material error.  You falsely equate manifest error with material error.  This despite the fact that, in the case of Vigano, you can't even produce a single heresy that he holds but condemn him as a heretic anyway.

    You're not honest. I have never even used terms like "manifest error" or "material error".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #145 on: June 15, 2020, 01:55:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 15, 2020, 12:25:03 PM
    You're not honest. I have never even used terms like "manifest error" or "material error".

    No, you used manifest heresy.  Is heresy not an error?
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #146 on: June 15, 2020, 02:25:02 PM »
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    • Thank you, Ladislaus, for posting the Fr Jenkins video.  It's good to see rational, sane sedevacantists who can give +Vigano credit for his true statements, who tell others to pray for him, and who aren't rabidly foaming at the mouth to label anyone outside their catholic sphere a heretic.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #147 on: June 15, 2020, 02:32:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 15, 2020, 01:55:36 PM
    No, you used manifest heresy.  Is heresy not an error?

    Heresy and error are not synonymous.
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #148 on: June 15, 2020, 03:23:13 PM »
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    • Struthio, you are way confused. First you said this:

    A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic.

    So if a manifest heretic isn’t a heretic (I cant believe I just wrote that illogical phrase but I digress...) then
    .
    1) your use of the English language makes no sense,
    2) or, your understanding of +Bellarmine’s term is wrong, or
    3) the translation of Bellarmine’s term is wrong, or
    4) manifest heresy (as you understand it) means a person is in error only, with a decision on their heresy to be determined later (which equals the modern term of “material heresy” which is why Ladislaus correctly used the word “error” as a synonym).
    .
    I say that it’s a combo of 1, 2 and 4 above.  Factually, 1 and 2 are correct, while 3 is false and 4 is only true subjectively, from your personally flawed understanding.
    .
    As it is, manifest heresy, as used by +Bellarmine, is not in any way an accidental, simple or confused error, but has the idea of pernicious and obstinate holding to known heresy, nor can it be said that a manifest heretic is not a heretic, nor can it be said that a manifest heretic is still a church member in good standing.  So, again, go re-read +Bellarmine.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #149 on: June 15, 2020, 03:39:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 15, 2020, 03:23:13 PM
    Struthio, you are way confused. First you said this:

    A manifest heretic may or may not be a heretic.

    So if a manifest heretic isn’t a heretic (I cant believe I just wrote that illogical phrase but I digress...)
    It was obvious to me what Struthio meant. When he said a manifest heretic "may not be a heretic," he meant a public heretic who may not have the pertinacity of will to be culpable as a formal heretic, and may not be a heretic internally if you will, but only exteriorly and publicly.

    If you want, I can quote you Van Nort and probably other theologians who indicate that a public, material heretic is considered outside the Church even if lacking the pertinacity of will of formal heresy, thus in a very real sense showing a manifest heretic who is yet not a "heretic" in a meaningful sense.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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