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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13313 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Viganò naturalist, Americanist?
« Reply #105 on: June 13, 2020, 07:40:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on June 13, 2020, 03:52:01 PM
    Yes, exactly. How are all men of good-will "Children of the Light" or "offspring of the Woman"?


    Bergoglio does the same: "All men are children of God, excepting arms dealers".

    They misuse technical terms, promoting indifferentism.

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    Offline Tallinn Trad

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #106 on: June 13, 2020, 07:43:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 13, 2020, 07:04:52 PM
    Who cares?  Your distrust and $7 might get me a cup of Starbucks coffee.  What is there to trust?  It's not like you're assisting at his Mass.  What implications do his words have for you?  What's more important is how his words against Bergoglio, against V2, against the New Mass, and against Modernism will affect those of good will in the Novus Ordo.  You're already a Traditional Catholic, so it doesn't even pertain to you.  You'd do better to praise and encourage Archbishop Vigano than to criticize and deride him at every turn.  Welcome the granting of these graces to him, just as you had received them earlier.  Vigano's enlightenment as well as your own are both just the free grace of God.  If he sees crappy attitudes like this among Traditional Catholics, he'd be more inclined to write us off as a schismatic crackpot cult.
    What he write us off as is irrelevant.
    If we have the true faith, the full truth, the opinion of a man who worked for the "parallel Church" for 50 years hardly concerns me. He is still working it out for himself.  This man does not have the wisdom of Solomon.
    You talk as if he is a Catholic Archbishop.  In fact, he is a virtual catechumen, a neophyte.
    I am concerned at his hiding away. 
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #107 on: June 13, 2020, 08:26:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 13, 2020, 07:04:52 PM
    You'd do better to praise and encourage Archbishop Vigano than to criticize and deride him at every turn.

    I don't deride him, and I don't criticize him at every turn. I don't deride him at all.

    You got upset because I called him a manifest heretic for being a senior offical of the heretical concilar sect. And that was before he came up with the idea to be "intellectually honest", or at least before his recent text was known here on CI.

    I have criticized him for trivializing the devastating teachings of the robber Council as "theorizing"; and for presenting himself as a victim. Nothing else, except see my previous post: promoting indifferentism.

    In the meantime you get upset as if he was the long expected orthodox Pope, or even more than that, as if this holy saviour was untouchable, as if you were now a Viganò-Conclavist.

    Calm down! If God chose him, Struthio.nobody@cathinfo won't be able to impede anything.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #108 on: June 13, 2020, 09:35:11 PM »
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    • Vigano is more of a Traditional Catholic than Fellay at this point.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #109 on: June 14, 2020, 06:51:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 13, 2020, 08:26:49 PM


    Calm down! If God chose him, Struthio.nobody@cathinfo won't be able to impede anything.
    Perspective.  :laugh1:
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #110 on: June 14, 2020, 08:06:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 13, 2020, 07:04:52 PM
    What's more important is how his words against Bergoglio, against V2, against the New Mass, and against Modernism will affect those of good will in the Novus Ordo.  You're already a Traditional Catholic, so it doesn't even pertain to you.  You'd do better to praise and encourage Archbishop Vigano than to criticize and deride him at every turn.  Welcome the granting of these graces to him, just as you had received them earlier.  Vigano's enlightenment as well as your own are both just the free grace of God.  
    Lad, I am including Vigano in my prayers.  I just hope that we aren't witnessing the next Burke who had nothing but empty words and promises. I also still have nagging doubts due to his inconsistent words, sometimes sounding very much Novus Ordo and other times sounding very Catholic.  I hope that the latter turns into some actions as well, but I'll admit I'm not sure what that would be given he is still in hiding.
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    Offline PAT317

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #111 on: June 14, 2020, 09:52:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 13, 2020, 09:35:11 PM
    Vigano is more of a Traditional Catholic than Fellay at this point.
    .
    Indeed.  Something like this was alluded to months ago.  
    Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 23, 2019, 06:08:49 PM
    I would not be surprised if soon it was announced that he is joining the SSPX (more infiltration).
    Quote from: PAT317 on December 23, 2019, 08:27:41 PM
    He's probably way too outspoken against Francis for the SSPX to let him join.
    Quote from: Ladislaus on December 24, 2019, 08:36:15 AM
    :laugh1: ... you're not wrong.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #112 on: June 14, 2020, 10:40:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: PAT317 on June 14, 2020, 09:52:43 AM
    .
    Indeed.  Something like this was alluded to months ago.  

    Two months ago, I would have suspected Vigano of infiltration or subversion.

    In light of his statement in this OP, I no longer do.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #113 on: June 14, 2020, 11:03:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: claudel on June 13, 2020, 05:29:05 PM
    I would suggest to you that as the archbishop's aim is "the exhortation of virtue and perseverance," it is less than fair to characterize his contextual vocabulary as "dumbed down" and "imprecise." On the contrary, in light of the eloquence of ++Viganò's expression and, in my opinion, his remarkable success, while advancing what might be called a "generically Christian" thesis, at managing never to actually or implicitly soft-pedal or depreciate Catholic doctrine—no easy trick to turn!—I judge ++Viganò's vocabulary both admirable and notably fit for its purpose.
    .
    I meant those adjectives relative to what one would expect from a theological journal, where the audience is Catholic and initiated into the jargon. I didn't mean his prose was imprecise or dumbed down in an absolute sense. I pretty much agree with you.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #114 on: June 14, 2020, 02:01:09 PM »
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    • From the Letter: 

    “Just as I honestly and serenely obeyed questionable orders sixty years ago, believing that they represented the loving voice of the Church, so today with equal serenity and honesty I recognize that I have been deceived. Being coherent today by persevering in error would represent a wretched choice and would make me an accomplice in this fraud."

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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #115 on: June 14, 2020, 02:19:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 14, 2020, 08:06:45 AM
    Lad, I am including Vigano in my prayers.  I just hope that we aren't witnessing the next Burke who had nothing but empty words and promises. I also still have nagging doubts due to his inconsistent words, sometimes sounding very much Novus Ordo and other times sounding very Catholic.  I hope that the latter turns into some actions as well, but I'll admit I'm not sure what that would be given he is still in hiding.

    If he's the next Burke, then he's the next Burke, and we move on.  What harm will come of it to us except perhaps for some disappointment?  So far he seems leaps and bounds beyond anything Burke ever did or said in favor of Tradition.  +Vagano makes +Fellay look like a liberal.  +Fellay had been peddling the "heremeneutic of continuity" nonsense for a time.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #116 on: June 14, 2020, 02:23:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 13, 2020, 08:26:49 PM
    You got upset because I called him a manifest heretic for being a senior offical of the heretical concilar sect.

    Absolutely I got upset at that, because it's nonsense.  Even if I were to grant that you're correct, that was the past, and he is NOW clearly expressing his regret for having remained supportive of the Conciliar aberrations.

    IF someone held an R&R type position where he considered the NO hierarchy to be legitimate, despite their errors, then where exactly is the "heresy" in remaining in communion with them?  I'm not seeing heresy.  Archbishop Lefebvre remained in good standing as an Archbishop of the Novus Ordo for about a decade after Vatican II concluded.  Was Archbishop Lefebvre a "manifest heretic" between 1965 and 1976.  And in 1976, it wasn't as if he left of his own accord but got suspended by Paul VI against his will.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #117 on: June 14, 2020, 02:33:56 PM »
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    • I would imagine that +Vigano was in the "hermeneutic of continuity" school himself for many years, that there were problematic statements in Vatican II that COULD be interpreted in a Traditional sense if someone wanted to, but could also be interpreted heretically, the so-called Vatican II "timebombs" theory that even many straight Traditonal Catholics hold.  Many still believe that if you do enough theological gymnastics, you can force-fit Vatican II into a Traditional Catholic sense.  +Vigano is now rejecting that.  So, for instance, +Vigano is more of a Traditional Catholic than XavierSem, since the latter denies that there's any error in Vatican II.

    Also, while I did not read Bishop Schneider's letter to which +Vigano is responding, it sounds like +Schneider also doesn't believe that there's a workable heremeneutic of continuity, but that some of the Vatican II teaching will have to be overturned and reformed.

    BTW:  although I personally hold the NO episcopal consecration to be doubtful, in terms of whether or not I pay the proper respect to someone consecrated in the New Rite, I resolve the doubt in favor of respect.  While I would not go to a Mass offered by a priest ordained by +Vigano, that is my own personal conscience.  When I run into NO priests, I still refer to them as "Father."  IMO it serves no constructive purpose to call a priest "Mr." like some radical sedevacantists like to do.  It just makes you look like a crackpot and is not constructive.
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #118 on: June 14, 2020, 03:13:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on June 14, 2020, 11:03:07 AM

    I meant those adjectives relative to what one would expect from a theological journal, where the audience is Catholic and initiated into the jargon. I didn't mean his prose was imprecise or dumbed down in an absolute sense. I pretty much agree with you.

    Just so. Point taken.
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #119 on: June 14, 2020, 03:35:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Tallinn Trad on June 13, 2020, 07:43:49 PM

    You talk as if he is a Catholic Archbishop.  In fact, he is a virtual catechumen, a neophyte.
    I am concerned at his hiding away.

    On the other hand, you talk as if you have the wits, the training, and most of all, the authority to declare that he isn't. You don't.

    As for his hiding away, until the day before yesterday, a person could count on an Estonian, because of his nation's post-1918 history, to understand the life-and-death peril that anyone who was "sought by the authorities" was in. Along with weekend brunch and latte on demand, westernization evidently also brought Tallinn and environs a total memory wipe.
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