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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13319 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #90 on: June 13, 2020, 10:31:57 AM »
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  • He didn’t say “mean well” or “good intentioned”, he said “good will”.  Big difference.  The angels at Christmastime said “peace on earth to men of good will”.  So, yes, he’s right.  You and others are just searching for something to whine about.
    Speaking of good will (or lack thereof), nice job of skipping over the first paragraph I quoted where NOW indeed used the term "good will". 
      
    Let us repeat: It is a very grave error to think that all who are of good will — who work for a living, strive not to hurt anyone, and help the poor — are the spiritual progeny of the Blessed Mother, are the Children of Light, are part of the Kingdom of God. It is heresy! That is the sort of theology one expects to get from “Pope” Francis, but not from a man who has recently been profiling himself as the orthodox antidote to Francis, even to the point of rightly calling into question the Second Vatican Council.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #91 on: June 13, 2020, 10:58:57 AM »
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  • I think that if one wants to critique Vigano's theology, they should do it when he is writing to Catholics.  He is writing to a man who is not a Christian in any palpable sense of the word, and who is of ill moral repute to boot-- who leads a nation of people who are just like him, in a world that is just like him.  When the eastern fathers dealt with the emperors in Constantinople (who notoriously vascillated on fundamental dogmas, like the divinity of Christ), I do not think that they communicated with them the same way they communicated with each other at Nicaea.  There is a very different vocabulary and purpose at work.  It's dumbed down, imprecise, and more aimed at the exhortation of virtue and perseverance than it is catechetical instruction.  Yet, it's probably the preferred way of making contact to, say, mailing him a copy of the Roman Catechism.
    .
    I think Vigano is a work in progress; what he says seems to develop progressively over time.  This is not dissimilar to reading the Archbishop's material over time, seeing it become increasingly less optimistic (about Vatican II) and more critical.  Trying to arrive at a conclusive analysis while the situation is still playing out is difficult, if not impossible.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #92 on: June 13, 2020, 12:12:27 PM »
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  • Vigano knows the US is not Catholic but only Protestant, generally speaking.  Thus, “good will” means love of the natural law, which was his main message to POTUS, concerning the fight for pro-life, etc.  Mithrandylan is right - consider the audience of who Viganò was writing to.  He was speaking, generally, of good vs evil, because that’s the battle the US is fighting right now - over the natural law, not over doctrine and not over V2.  

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #93 on: June 13, 2020, 02:51:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: DecemRationis
    suppose a future pope "corrected" V2 by declaring Paul VI an anti-pope heretic, and throwing out the whole darn thing - false pope, false council, not a valid expression of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

    Couldn't you call that a "correction"? And would that "contradict the anti-modernist syllabus of St. Pius X"?

    I think not.

    Perhaps what Vigano is attacking is the referenced position of Bishop Schneider, and limited to that, which is what he was discussing.

    In addition to explaining the problem with a correction of V2 errors, he says that they must get rid of the bad guys, and they shouldn't fear schism. I guess his ideas are half-baked. He seems to be looking for something like a new "hermeneutic of continuity", this time with respect to the Church where V2 and the bad guys have to be dismissed. His approach seems to be the expression "parallel church". All evil was done by the bad guys of the parallel church. I have no idea where he's heading. Given that he's writing an open letter, he probably is looking for likeminded prelates to work things out together.


    Quote from: DecemRationis
    I'd like to see what the position of Archbishop Lefebvre was on this "correcting" of V2.

    "The position of Archbishop Lefebvre" usually is scattered. But I think one can sum up that it basically converged to Rome must convert, the Council can't be accepted as is and a future Pope must resolve matters.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #94 on: June 13, 2020, 02:55:08 PM »
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  • Or do the remarks of Vigano indicate, in his mind, that V2 was a valid ecuмenical council, since "correcting" it would run counter to the Decree Lamentibili? In light of his remarks about it contradicting Scripture etc. regarding religious liberty, that would be a major issue - as I've been suggesting.

    I don't think so. Sounds more like it was a crime committed by "the parallel church".


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #95 on: June 13, 2020, 03:19:32 PM »
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  • I think he has to come out Sede at this point. I hope so, and let's see.

    So far, he doesn't say that anyone of his "parallel church" has lost office:


    Quote from: Viganò
    This operation of intellectual honesty requires a great humility, first of all in recognizing that for decades we have been led into error, in good faith, by people who, established in authority, have not known how to watch over and guard the flock of Christ: some for the sake of living quietly, some because of having too many commitments, some out of convenience, and finally some in bad faith or even malicious intent. These last ones who have betrayed the Church must be identified, taken aside, invited to amend and, if they do not repent they must be expelled from the sacred enclosure.

    I don't trust him. He is "intellectually honest" and with "great humility" admitting to have been led astray by bad wolves, and without further ado implicitly excuses himself from having been co-perpetrator for five decades destroying the Church of Our Lord and leading hundreds of millions of sheep astray. May the Lord be clement. But how can He, while Viganò paints himself as a victim? Objective sin has to be repented when the misdeed is finally recognized, even if committed bona fide.

    Online Geremia

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    Viganò naturalist, Americanist?
    « Reply #96 on: June 13, 2020, 03:52:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: NovusOrdoWatch
    Let us repeat: It is a very grave error to think that all who are of good will — who work for a living, strive not to hurt anyone, and help the poor — are the spiritual progeny of the Blessed Mother, are the Children of Light, are part of the Kingdom of God. It is heresy! That is the sort of theology one expects to get from “Pope” Francis, but not from a man who has recently been profiling himself as the orthodox antidote to Francis, even to the point of rightly calling into question the Second Vatican Council.
     .....
    Vigano’s identification of basically all who mean well with the Children of Light spoken of in the Bible is an utter theological nightmare. We are not talking about a simple gaffe, the mere result of a quibble about a theological nuance. No, this is a huge heresy with tremendous practical repercussions, as it indirectly confirms all good-willed non-Catholics in their errors and promotes a sort of “generic religion of the good-willed” or a “generic Christianity” at best. But that is a false Christianity, because there is only one true Christianity, and that is the Roman Catholic religion, of which “Abp.” Vigano considers himself a representative. Ironically, this Indifferentism promoted by Vigano is one of the core doctrines of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

    Yes, exactly. How are all men of good-will "Children of the Light" or "offspring of the Woman"?
    Viganò writes:
    Quote from: Viganò
    These two sides, which have a Biblical nature, follow the clear separation between the offspring of the Woman and the offspring of the Serpent. On the one hand, there are those who, although they have a thousand defects and weaknesses, are motivated by the desire to do good, to be honest, to raise a family, to engage in work, to give prosperity to their homeland, to help the needy, and, in obedience to the Law of God, to merit the Kingdom of Heaven.
    He lumps (or identifies?) the merely good-willed people ("who are the majority"?) with the "offspring of the Woman", who are a minority in Protestant, Mary-indifferent and Mary-hating America.

    Viganò makes it seem like "merit[ing] the Kingdom of Heaven" automatically follows from exercising purely natural virtues. This is naturalism, the religion of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, as Pope Leo XIII explains in Humanum Genus.

    Americanism, too, is characterized by the "over esteem of natural virtue" (Testem Benevolentiae Nostræ addressed to Cdl. Gibbons).
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    Offline Nadir

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    Not all of the points are great, Pax.

    There are so called contraceptive drugs, which actually are contraceptive and abortive. A high percentage of their "efficacy" is based on abortion. (This is not said to approve that dubious website.)
    Did you discover yet 
    that water is wet? 
    Go back and check. 

    Either you did not read the article, or have trouble with literacy. "That dubious website" rosarytotheinterior.com states, on the page linked  

    Quote
    In the United States, according to polls (Pew and Gallup), 91% of its citizens believe in contraception, and this despite the fact that an estimated 10 to 18 times as many unborn babies are murdered by contraception than surgical abortion.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline Struthio

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    Did you discover yet
    that water is wet?
    Go back and check.

    Either you did not read the article, or have trouble with literacy. "That dubious website" rosarytotheinterior.com states, on the page linked  

    Dear Nadir,

    I suggest you comment the OP of Matthew in that recent thread of his, where he is counting energy in kW and not kWh!

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #99 on: June 13, 2020, 05:29:05 PM »
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  • There is a very different vocabulary and purpose at work. It's dumbed down, imprecise, and more aimed at the exhortation of virtue and perseverance than [at] catechetical instruction.

    I would suggest to you that as the archbishop's aim is "the exhortation of virtue and perseverance," it is less than fair to characterize his contextual vocabulary as "dumbed down" and "imprecise." On the contrary, in light of the eloquence of ++Viganò's expression and, in my opinion, his remarkable success, while advancing what might be called a "generically Christian" thesis, at managing never to actually or implicitly soft-pedal or depreciate Catholic doctrine—no easy trick to turn!—I judge ++Viganò's vocabulary both admirable and notably fit for its purpose.

    Offline claudel

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    I suggest you comment the OP of Matthew in that recent thread of his, where he is counting energy in kW and not kWh!

    Yet again, you dismiss an accurate diagnosis of error or ill will as mere nitpicking. Your comments and replies bespeak a closed-mindedness typical of those who believe that review and reflection are tasks only other people need undertake.

    You ought to consider changing your screen name to Rash Judgment. You have given us a dozen or so examples of that disorder on this thread alone, and that's just for starters. Furthermore, your patently inadequate comprehension of English words on a page does not entirely exempt you from culpability for your distasteful habit of making unfounded and invariably invidious presumptions that distort and misrepresent the statements of anyone who, thank God, lacks your fervor for the intellectually nonsensical and morally offensive theory of sedevacantism.

    Like 2Vermont, with whom you have much in common, you would do well to recall the old maxim that God gave us two eyes, two ears, and one mouth because he wishes us to look and listen fully twice as much as we speak. You and she, alas, are among the many who evidently would claim that typing and speaking are unconnected operations and that because you have ten fingers, it's peachy keen to write ten times as much drivel as you would ever dare utter.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #101 on: June 13, 2020, 07:04:52 PM »
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  • I don't trust him.

    Who cares?  Your distrust and $7 might get me a cup of Starbucks coffee.  What is there to trust?  It's not like you're assisting at his Mass.  What implications do his words have for you?  What's more important is how his words against Bergoglio, against V2, against the New Mass, and against Modernism will affect those of good will in the Novus Ordo.  You're already a Traditional Catholic, so it doesn't even pertain to you.  You'd do better to praise and encourage Archbishop Vigano than to criticize and deride him at every turn.  Welcome the granting of these graces to him, just as you had received them earlier.  Vigano's enlightenment as well as your own are both just the free grace of God.  If he sees crappy attitudes like this among Traditional Catholics, he'd be more inclined to write us off as a schismatic crackpot cult.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Viganò naturalist, Americanist?
    « Reply #102 on: June 13, 2020, 07:15:12 PM »
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  • Yes, exactly. How are all men of good-will "Children of the Light" or "offspring of the Woman"?
    Viganò writes:He lumps (or identifies?) the merely good-willed people ("who are the majority"?) with the "offspring of the Woman", who are a minority in Protestant, Mary-indifferent and Mary-hating America.

    Viganò makes it seem like "merit[ing] the Kingdom of Heaven" automatically follows from exercising purely natural virtues. This is naturalism, the religion of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, as Pope Leo XIII explains in Humanum Genus.

    Americanism, too, is characterized by the "over esteem of natural virtue" (Testem Benevolentiae Nostræ addressed to Cdl. Gibbons).

    Garbage.  Archbishop Vigano reaffirms a number of times the dogma that there is no salvation outside the Church and without Catholic faith.  St. Augustine spoke of there being those outside the Church who belong to God, because the are of good will and are on a trajectory towards him.  Of course, they cannot be saved without entering the ark of salvation.  Did you miss his condemnation of the notion that non-Catholics can be saved?  Certainly even outside the Church there are lines between good and bad, on the natural level, or would you lump a fervent Pro-Lifer together with the most ardent abortionist without any distinction between them?  They're all the same to you?

    Did you miss this in the letter?

    Quote
    Numerous practicing Catholics, and perhaps also a majority of Catholic clergy, are today convinced that the Catholic Faith is no longer necessary for eternal salvation;
    ...
    Last Sunday, the Church celebrated the Most Holy Trinity, and in the Breviary it offers us the recitation of the Symbolum Athanasianum, now outlawed by the conciliar liturgy and already reduced to only two occasions in the liturgical reform of 1962. The first words of that now-disappeared Symbolum remain inscribed in letters of gold: “Quicuмque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est ut teneat Catholicam fidem; quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternum peribit – Whosoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; For unless a person shall have kept this faith whole and inviolate, without doubt he shall eternally perish.”

    Offline Struthio

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    Yet again, you dismiss an accurate diagnosis of error or ill will as mere nitpicking. Your comments and replies bespeak a closed-mindedness typical of those who believe that review and reflection are tasks only other people need undertake.

    You ought to consider changing your screen name to Rash Judgment. You have given us a dozen or so examples of that disorder on this thread alone, and that's just for starters. Furthermore, your patently inadequate comprehension of English words on a page does not entirely exempt you from culpability for your distasteful habit of making unfounded and invariably invidious presumptions that distort and misrepresent the statements of anyone who, thank God, lacks your fervor for the intellectually nonsensical and morally offensive theory of sedevacantism.

    Like 2Vermont, with whom you have much in common, you would do well to recall the old maxim that God gave us two eyes, two ears, and one mouth because he wishes us to look and listen fully twice as much as we speak. You and she, alas, are among the many who evidently would claim that typing and speaking are unconnected operations and that because you have ten fingers, it's peachy keen to write ten times as much drivel as you would ever dare utter.

    :jester: :fryingpan: :laugh2:

    Although your epic reaction to my "nitpicking"-accusation would warrant a corresponding response, I won't offer one. Given that I don't sufficiently master your language and given cultural differences, I prefer to do without. Even if my intentions were most pure, I would risk to be misunderstood and cause harm.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #104 on: June 13, 2020, 07:33:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Struthio
    I don't trust him. He is "intellectually honest" and with "great humility" admitting to have been led astray by bad wolves, and without further ado implicitly excuses himself from having been co-perpetrator for five decades destroying the Church of Our Lord and leading hundreds of millions of sheep astray. May the Lord be clement. But how can He, while Viganò paints himself as a victim? Objective sin has to be repented when the misdeed is finally recognized, even if committed bona fide.
    Who cares?

    Well, I do care. That's why I said "I don't trust him."