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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13321 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2020, 07:58:59 AM »
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  • Meg, the only one going round and round is you.  

    I've made it clear that I am willing to discuss positive points about Vigano.  You refuse to address the negative.

    I'm sorry.  I thought you were actually trying to engage in a sincere conversation.  Silly me.  ::)

    Yes, I refuse to address the negative. That's because I don't debate by the rules of sedes. They (you) seem to believe that sedes have the only real and true views, and that everyone else (non-sedes) are wrong. Let it sink in: I don't play be sede rules.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #76 on: June 13, 2020, 08:02:42 AM »
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  • Yes, I refuse to address the negative. That's because I don't debate by the rules of sedes. They (you) seem to believe that sedes have the only real and true views, and that everyone else (non-sedes) are wrong. Let it sink in: I don't play be sede rules.
    Well, at least you admitted it.  Thank you.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #77 on: June 13, 2020, 08:05:08 AM »
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  • Well, at least you admitted it.  Thank you.

    You are very welcome. And if you ever want to have an honest debate, let me know. Though with sedes, I understand that's not really possible.

    Since this is basically a sede forum, you sedes will always have the upper-hand. Some of us will still try to defend the position of +ABL, though it isn't easy, or accepted by most of the forum members.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #78 on: June 13, 2020, 08:06:21 AM »
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  • I actually remember Schneider criticize V2 to the point where he called for correction of errors.  I will agree that Vigano seems to go farther, but then again on one hand he condemns Vatican II and on the other he writes letters that seem to espouse some of the very same things.  
    This is what I was thinking of:
    https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/vatican-ii-must-be-corrected-bishop-schneider-2257

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #79 on: June 13, 2020, 08:33:01 AM »
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  • Some of us will still try to defend the position of +ABL, though it isn't easy, or accepted by most of the forum members.

    Did you notice that Viganò says that the position of Lefebvre implies modernism? More precise, that the idea of a future Pope correcting V2 undermines the Catholic edifice from its foundation by contradicting the anti-modernist syllabus of St Pius X?


    Quote from: Viganò
    Bishop Athanasius comments: “One may rightly hope and believe that a future Pope or Ecuмenical Council will correct the erroneous statement made” by Vatican II. This appears to me to be an argument that, although made with the best of intentions, undermines the Catholic edifice from its foundation. If in fact we admit that there may be Magisterial acts that, due to a changed sensitivity, are susceptible to abrogation, modification, or different interpretation with the passage of time, we inevitably fall under the condemnation of the Decree Lamentabili [...]



    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #80 on: June 13, 2020, 08:44:29 AM »
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  • Did you notice that Viganò says that the position of Lefebvre implies modernism? More precise, that the idea of a future Pope correcting V2 undermines the Catholic edifice from its foundation by contradicting the anti-modernist syllabus of St Pius X?
    Struthio,

    Good morning to ya. 

    The "position of Archbishop Lefebvre" on "a future pope correcting V2" hasn't been precisely identified precisely here. For example, suppose a future pope "corrected" V2 by declaring Paul VI an anti-pope heretic, and throwing out the whole darn thing - false pope, false council, not a valid expression of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. 

    Couldn't you call that a "correction"? And would that "contradict the anti-modernist syllabus of St. Pius X"?

    I think not. 

    Perhaps what Vigano is attacking is the referenced position of Bishop Schneider, and limited to that, which is what he was discussing. 

    I'd like to see what the position of Archbishop Lefebvre was on this "correcting" of V2. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #81 on: June 13, 2020, 08:50:17 AM »
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  • Or do the remarks of Vigano indicate, in his mind, that V2 was a valid ecuмenical council, since "correcting" it would run counter to the Decree Lamentibili? In light of his remarks about it contradicting Scripture etc. regarding religious liberty, that would be a major issue - as I've been suggesting. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #82 on: June 13, 2020, 09:02:57 AM »
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  • Did you notice that Viganò says that the position of Lefebvre implies modernism? More precise, that the idea of a future Pope correcting V2 undermines the Catholic edifice from its foundation by contradicting the anti-modernist syllabus of St Pius X?

    I pointed this out a couple days ago now.  Specifically, he is addressing the position articulated by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, but yes it does look like he's rejecting the R&R position.  That is why I've suggested that he's slouching torwards sedevacantism.

    Archbishop Vigano DOES state that there's error in Vatican II.  Then he rejects the notion that the Magisterium of an Ecuмenical Council can be "reformed".

    Put the syllogism together.

    Major:  Teaching of an Ecuмenical Council is irreformable.
    Minor:  There's actual error in Vatican II (he rejects the notion of resolving mere ambiguity through the hermeneutic of continuity).
    Conclusion: ???

    Is he leaning toward a sedevacantist-type proposition that V2 was not a legitimate Ecuмenical Council?  He has REPEATEDLY referred to Francis as Bergoglio (like a sedevacantist would).  He's made reference to a counterfeit anti-Church of which Bergoglio is the head.  Also, since he traces the error to V2, that seems to rule out the Benedictiplenist view (where BXVI is still the legitimate pope).

    This is why I get a very strong vibe that he's gone closet sedevacantist.  Perhaps even now he is deep in prayer, offering the Tridentine Mass, contemplating the prudence of whether to come out with it.  This logical conclusion of what he's written is almost inescapable.  I wouldn't be surprised to find out about a bombshell letter declaring the See vacant.

    If that's the case, he's actually "playing" this very well.  He starts by calling out the pedophiles and the protection of pedophiles by Bergoglio.  He gets groups like Church Militant and various conservative Novus Ordo groups backing him.  Once he's established this credibility among the Novus Ordo conservative types, he than starts going after not only Bergoglio's errors but describing how they're rooted in Vatican II, that there has been a "counterfeit Church" set up as a direct result of Vatican II, and that Bergoglio aspires to be the head of this counterfeit Church.  Once he gets more conservative Novus Ordites to wake up and embrace the truth/reality of this, then he could come out with the bombshell declaration that the Holy See is vacant.  He's also making a name for himself outside Catholic circles with his letter to President Trump that the latter tweeted about.  He's making a name for himself and establishing great credibility among conservative types.  This man is, after all, a trained diplomat, and he may know exactly what he's doing.  These letters of his might be part of a larger program.  Imagine how this would be received by groups like Church Militant.  They'd be gobsmacked.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #83 on: June 13, 2020, 09:10:49 AM »
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  • Or do the remarks of Vigano indicate, in his mind, that V2 was a valid ecuмenical council, since "correcting" it would run counter to the Decree Lamentibili? In light of his remarks about it contradicting Scripture etc. regarding religious liberty, that would be a major issue - as I've been suggesting.

    Exactly right that this is a major issue.  See the syllogism I put together in my last post.  It's why I feel he's moving towards sedevacantism.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #84 on: June 13, 2020, 09:15:07 AM »
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  • Once he's established this credibility among the Novus Ordo conservative types, he than starts going after not only Bergoglio's errors but describing how they're rooted in Vatican II, that there has been a "counterfeit Church" set up as a direct result of Vatican II, and that Bergoglio aspires to be the head of this counterfeit Church.  Once he gets more conservative Novus Ordites to wake up and embrace the truth/reality of this, then he could come out with the bombshell declaration that the Holy See is vacant.  Imagine how this would be received by groups like Church Militant.  They'd be gobsmacked.
    If that were so, and he planned this out that way, that would be wonderful. 

    As I noted, he accused V2 in DH of heresy, contradiction of Scripture and the Magisterium on religious liberty. He has to come terms with that and address it in a subsequent letter, the ramifications of that theologically. 

    I think he has to come out Sede at this point. I hope so, and let's see. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #85 on: June 13, 2020, 09:16:43 AM »
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  • It also would be brilliant on his part - the strategy Lad intimated. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #86 on: June 13, 2020, 09:29:54 AM »
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  • If that were so, and he planned this out that way, that would be wonderful.

    As I noted, he accused V2 in DH of heresy, contradiction of Scripture and the Magisterium on religious liberty. He has to come terms with that and address it in a subsequent letter, the ramifications of that theologically.

    I think he has to come out Sede at this point. I hope so, and let's see.

    Yes, his logic appears to be leading him inexorably to sedevacantism.  I've re-read this a few times, and it's impossible to escape.  Archbishop Vigano admits to having been deceived and realizes it was wrong to go along with everything out of a false sense of obedience.  So I don't understand all the critics who declare him a heretic for "having gone along" with it.  Even if people believe that, then this amounts to a public abjuration of this "going along with it" in very clear terms.

    This letter is groundbreaking and monumental and might mark a watershed moment in the Restoration of the Church.  Of course, I was also personally moved by the fact that it was written on June 9th, my birthday, and he made reference to Holy Trinity Sunday (which happened to fall on June 9th the day I was born).  He still had Trinity Sunday in mind as he wrote this, as he made several references to Catholic Trinitarian doctrine.

    This letter is so incredibly well written that it could be a Papal Encyclical (once the necessary conclusions are added).  Compare this to the garbage that has been emanating from the Vatican for the past 60 years or so.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #87 on: June 13, 2020, 09:33:17 AM »
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  • Archbishop Vigano admits that it was Bergoglio who has woken him up and snapped him out of it.  I've said many times that it may have been a mistake for the Church's enemies to put a Bergoglio on the See this soon.  Wojtyla and Ratzinger lulled people to sleep and won the hearts of conservatives everywhere.  Bergoglio is so over-the-top that no one of good faith can fail to see that his attitudes and thinking are simply not Catholic.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #88 on: June 13, 2020, 09:35:14 AM »
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  • Yes, his logic appears to be leading him inexorably to sedevacantism.  I've re-read this a few times, and it's impossible to escape.  Archbishop Vigano admits to having been deceived and realizes it was wrong to go along with everything out of a false sense of obedience.  So I don't understand all the critics who declare him a heretic for "having gone along" with it.  Even if people believe that, then this amounts to a public abjuration of this "going along with it" in very clear terms.

    This letter is groundbreaking and monumental and might mark a watershed moment in the Restoration of the Church.  Of course, I was also personally moved by the fact that it was written on June 9th, my birthday, and he made reference to Holy Trinity Sunday (which happened to fall on June 9th the day I was born).  He still had Trinity Sunday in mind as he wrote this, as he made several references to Catholic Trinitarian doctrine.

    This letter is so incredibly well written that it could be a Papal Encyclical (once the necessary conclusions are added).  Compare this to the garbage that has been emanating from the Vatican for the past 60 years or so.
    Yes. Incredibly well-written and articulate, like an Encyclical. I had wanted to mention that before, glad you did.

    A belated Happy Birthday!
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #89 on: June 13, 2020, 09:44:46 AM »
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  • Quote
    Vigano’s identification of basically all who mean well with the Children of Light spoken of in the Bible is an utter theological nightmare. 
    He didn’t say “mean well” or “good intentioned”, he said “good will”.  Big difference.  The angels at Christmastime said “peace on earth to men of good will”.  So, yes, he’s right.  You and others are just searching for something to whine about.