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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13322 times)

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Offline claudel

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  • Dangerous Heresy [Naturalism] in attractive Wrapping Paper: Viganò’s Letter to Trump


    Geremia, are you linking to this article simply to stimulate debate, or do you actually have respect for the noxious crowd that publishes Novus Ordo Watch?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #61 on: June 12, 2020, 10:16:41 PM »
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  • Agree, Claudel.  I’ve never heard Schneider, Burke, or Sarah even whisper the idea of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ in new-rome, much less criticize V2, besides complaining about the “false interpretation” of it, which is a wimpy and false opposition to heresy.  Vigano just nukes the idea that V2 is even salvageable (which is more hardcore than even +Fellay et al) and then says we’ve had a false/parallel church since the 60s.  I hope Vigano didn’t get knocked off.  He needs many prayers and hoping he’ll keep up the truth-bombs.  He could really wake up a lot of people.  


    Offline Struthio

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    This is an irrelevancy. Contraception is not abortion, just as abortion is not contraception. If a drug company executive wants to call an abortifacient a contraceptive, he might be a liar, but his action has not changed reality.

    But he said "not surgical abortion", which makes that one of your "great points" (Pax) more one of a nitpicker.

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • Geremia, are you linking to this article simply to stimulate debate, or do you actually have respect for the noxious crowd that publishes Novus Ordo Watch?
    Debate with those who see nothing wrong from Vigano?  Or who ignore or defend things they would normally oppose if they weren't written by Vigano?  Come on now claudel.  Many of you are ready to canonize him.  There is nothing I or anyone from the "noxious crowd" of NOW could say to sway you.  

    In the event that anyone here wishes to truly consider what NOW said in the above article which was posted elsewhere on this forum, here are a couple of parts of it (note that NOW does give him credit where credit is due...so noxious of him!):

    Let us repeat: It is a very grave error to think that all who are of good will — who work for a living, strive not to hurt anyone, and help the poor — are the spiritual progeny of the Blessed Mother, are the Children of Light, are part of the Kingdom of God. It is heresy! That is the sort of theology one expects to get from “Pope” Francis, but not from a man who has recently been profiling himself as the orthodox antidote to Francis, even to the point of rightly calling into question the Second Vatican Council

    .....

    Vigano’s identification of basically all who mean well with the Children of Light spoken of in the Bible is an utter theological nightmare. We are not talking about a simple gaffe, the mere result of a quibble about a theological nuance. No, this is a huge heresy with tremendous practical repercussions, as it indirectly confirms all good-willed non-Catholics in their errors and promotes a sort of “generic religion of the good-willed” or a “generic Christianity” at best. But that is a false Christianity, because there is only one true Christianity, and that is the Roman Catholic religion, of which “Abp.” Vigano considers himself a representative. Ironically, this Indifferentism promoted by Vigano is one of the core doctrines of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #64 on: June 13, 2020, 06:20:16 AM »
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  • It appears that it's mainly sedevacantists who are against Vigano. Surely that says something. Sedevacantists seem to expect that only someone perfectly traditional (preferably sedevacantist) in their eyes should be bothered with or paid attention to. I certainly don't think that we should hang on every word of Viganos', since he's likely to get some things wrong. But he does get a lot of things right.

    As Sean said earlier in this thread, Rome's [eventual?] conversion should look like that of Viganos' conversion (or words to that effect).

    Archbishop Lefebvre held out hope that Modernist-occupied Rome would one day convert back to the Catholic Faith. There's that word "Hope," which many of the sedes don't have. Do the sedes even want modernist Rome to convert back to the Faith, or have they totally given up on that? 

    Conversions don't happen overnight, and when Rome converts, it won't likely happen overnight, IMO. Unless there's some kind of miracle or divine intervention.

    I've felt for awhile now that the Francis papacy is a good thing, because it will wake some Catholics up to the reality and ugliness of modernism. That seems to have happened for Vigano. If someone like Cardinals Sarah or Burke would have been elected to the papacy, it would have been more of a conservative modernist papacy, like that of B16. 


    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #65 on: June 13, 2020, 07:02:39 AM »
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  • It appears that it's mainly sedevacantists who are against Vigano. Surely that says something. Sedevacantists seem to expect that only someone perfectly traditional (preferably sedevacantist) in their eyes should be bothered with or paid attention to. I certainly don't think that we should hang on every word of Viganos', since he's likely to get some things wrong. But he does get a lot of things right.

    As Sean said earlier in this thread, Rome's [eventual?] conversion should look like that of Viganos' conversion (or words to that effect).

    Archbishop Lefebvre held out hope that Modernist-occupied Rome would one day convert back to the Catholic Faith. There's that word "Hope," which many of the sedes don't have. Do the sedes even want modernist Rome to convert back to the Faith, or have they totally given up on that?

    Conversions don't happen overnight, and when Rome converts, it won't likely happen overnight, IMO. Unless there's some kind of miracle or divine intervention.

    I've felt for awhile now that the Francis papacy is a good thing, because it will wake some Catholics up to the reality and ugliness of modernism. That seems to have happened for Vigano. If someone like Cardinals Sarah or Burke would have been elected to the papacy, it would have been more of a conservative modernist papacy, like that of B16.
    I'm all for pointing out those things he gets right so long as others are willing to point out those things he gets wrong.  Even here you say he is  "likely to get some things wrong".  Well, he already has.  Why are the non-sedes not willing to speak to those things?  Why is the tendency to ignore, dismiss or defend them? Could it be because it is mostly the sedes who are pointing them out?  It reminds me when Trads would criticize Francis and the conservative Novus Ordos would come up with every possible excuse for his words and actions (and no, I'm not saying Vigano = Francis).

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #66 on: June 13, 2020, 07:07:22 AM »
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  • I'm all for pointing out those things he gets right so long as others are willing to point out those things he gets wrong.  Even here you say he is  "likely to get some things wrong".  Well, he already has.  Why are the non-sedes not willing to speak to those things?  Why is the tendency to ignore, dismiss or defend them? Could it be because it is the mostly the sedes who are pointing them out?  It reminds me when Trads would criticize Francis and the conservative Novus Ordos would come up with every possible excuse for his words and actions (and no, I'm not saying Vigano = Francis).

    Sedes and non-sedes don't think alike. I tried to show the difference in my last post, which you didn't seem understand. But that's okay; there's not much that I can do about it.

    There has always been a big gulf between sedes and non-sedes. That's not likely to change. That's the basic problem, IMO.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #67 on: June 13, 2020, 07:09:13 AM »
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  • Agree, Claudel.  I’ve never heard Schneider, Burke, or Sarah even whisper the idea of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ in new-rome, much less criticize V2, besides complaining about the “false interpretation” of it, which is a wimpy and false opposition to heresy.  Vigano just nukes the idea that V2 is even salvageable (which is more hardcore than even +Fellay et al) and then says we’ve had a false/parallel church since the 60s.  I hope Vigano didn’t get knocked off.  He needs many prayers and hoping he’ll keep up the truth-bombs.  He could really wake up a lot of people.  
    I actually remember Schneider criticize V2 to the point where he called for correction of errors.  I will agree that Vigano seems to go farther, but then again on one hand he condemns Vatican II and on the other he writes letters that seem to espouse some of the very same things.  


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #68 on: June 13, 2020, 07:10:38 AM »
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  • Sedes and non-sedes don't think alike. I tried to show the difference in my last post, which you didn't seem understand. But that's okay; there's not much that I can do about it.

    There has always been a big gulf between sedes and non-sedes. That's not likely to change. That's the basic problem, IMO.
    Oh I understood it Meg, but it seems you have completely missed my point though as you didn't even respond to it.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #69 on: June 13, 2020, 07:36:20 AM »
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  • Oh I understood it Meg, but it seems you have completely missed my point though as you didn't even respond to it.

    Well then, it seems that we are both guilty of not responding to each other's points.   ;)

    Welcome to the divide between sedes and non-sedes. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #70 on: June 13, 2020, 07:38:03 AM »
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  • Well then, it seems that we are both guilty of not responding to each other's points.   ;)

    Welcome to the divide between sedes and non-sedes.
    But you see, I actually responded to your post.  You didn't respond to mine.  
    Let's not pretend that *this* is about the divide between sedes and non-sedes. ;)


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #71 on: June 13, 2020, 07:41:01 AM »
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  • But you see, I actually responded to your post.  You didn't respond to mine.  
    Let's not pretend that *this* is about the divide between sedes and non-sedes. ;)

    In what way did you respond to the point that I was making? I must have missed it. 

    And it IS about sedes and non-sedes. It always is. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #72 on: June 13, 2020, 07:47:38 AM »
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  • In what way did you respond to the point that I was making? I must have missed it.
    I responded to a portion of your post. Since when is anyone expected to respond to everything in it?  On the other hand you completely ignored all of the content in my post.

    We all know that sedes and non-sedes think differently.  This is not a revelation.

    Now, if you would like to have a real conversation rather than beat around the bush, perhaps you could revisit and respond to something I wrote in my post.
       

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #73 on: June 13, 2020, 07:52:26 AM »
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  • I responded to a portion of your post. Since when is anyone expected to respond to everything in it?  On the other hand you completely ignored all of the content in my post.

    We all know that sedes and non-sedes think differently.  This is not a revelation.

    Now, if you would like to have a real conversation rather than beat around the bush, perhaps you could revisit and respond to something I wrote in my post.
      

    You did not respond to the point that I was making. Yet you expect me to respond to yours.

    We can go round and round about this if you like. But it will not change the fact that sedes appear have no hope for Rome converting back to the Catholic Faith, and they (including you) don't want anyone else to have any hope that Rome will convert to the Catholic Faith.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #74 on: June 13, 2020, 07:56:12 AM »
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  • Meg, the only one going round and round is you.  

    I've made it clear that I am willing to discuss positive points about Vigano.  You refuse to address the negative.

    I'm sorry.  I thought you were actually trying to engage in a sincere conversation.  Silly me.  ::)