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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13303 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2020, 09:42:18 AM »
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  • So, for instance, John Daly can argue that RL contradicts Tradition and the Deposit and is therefore objectively heretical, and he could very well be right (and I don't dispute that he is), but the logic used to arrive at that conclusion prevents his conclusion from being anything more than a personal opinion which cannot bind the consciences and the faith of others de fide.
    Lad,

    As I said earlier this morning, I have accused no one of formal heresy.

    In the context of our discussion, all that matters is whether DH is materially heretical in terms of religious liberty. You have conceded that Daly "could very well be right (I don't dispute that he is)."

    That being given or at least undisputed, we therefore have an ecuмenical council of the men then in possession of the sees of the bishoprics of the Catholic Church stating material heresy in a docuмent officially promulgated and approved by someone who sits in the chair of Peter as pope (de facto if not de jure) after being elected by a conclave of the then current cardinals of the Catholic Church.

    By your recent concession, and I believe taking into account all of your objections, we have above a statement of the problem we can both agree on I think.

    Of course, a possible explanation in light of your concession about Daly's argument is that Paul VI was not a true pope and therefore any potential problems about the Magisterium's indefectibility and/or infallibility legally evaporate (the Sedevacantist position).

    That doesn't deal with the factual issue of this happening, which is an extraordinary and anomalous departure, something which has never happened in the history of the Church. I prefer to believe this is the discessio or schism/revolt prophesied in Scripture  (2 TH 2), an anomaly decreed by God, like, for example, Judas being a "son of perdition" despite being "given to Christ by the Father," all of the rest of those so given (without exception sans Judas) being saved and reserved to a raising to heaven bodily on the last day. See John 6:37,39 and 17:12.

    I do not and never have indicated that this is more than a personal opinion of my own, and have never said it binds the conscience of anyone. And I have never said the Daly conclusion regarding the heresy of religious liberty in DH is binding on anyone either. Those would be strawmen in reference to me.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #46 on: June 12, 2020, 09:54:52 AM »
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  • In the context of our discussion, all that matters is whether DH is materially heretical in terms of religious liberty. You have conceded that Daly "could very well be right (I don't dispute that he is)."

    Well, regardless, Vigano (the thread topic here) has stated that RL is erroneous, so accusing him even of material heresy is unwarranted.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #47 on: June 12, 2020, 02:03:19 PM »
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  • Well, regardless, Vigano (the thread topic here) has stated that RL is erroneous, so accusing him even of material heresy is unwarranted.
    I said in post #44 of this thread:

    Quote
    And I point out to you - not wanting to take the time to respond to all of your responses to me on this subject - I have not accused a single other Catholic, certainly not Vigano whom I have commended, of heresy. Not one.


    Do I need to explicitly say material or formal heresy? Fine. I have not accused anyone, especially the Archbishop, of material heresy in this discussion. In fact, I noted the he pointed out DH's material heresy or error (if you wish) on religious liberty.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Geremia

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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #49 on: June 12, 2020, 04:48:36 PM »
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  • Since Vigano has been resigned, as of age 75, now what?  He is still New Order, correct?   Does he give sacraments?  I take it, that he does.  He someone asks for the sacrament of Extreme Unction, will he give that sacrament or a mere blessing?

    If Vigano needs Extreme Unction, who will give it? A new order clergy? a mere blessing.

    I do question, if Vigano is of a changing heart, why does he stay new order?  If sees the wrongs of the new order church, what is his solution?


    Offline claudel

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    Archbishop Viganò, Donald Trump, and The Americanist Delusion of Traditional Catholics


    Thank you for bringing this article to the forum's attention. It reveals all too plainly that much of what passes for deep moral thinking among self-styled Trads is actually deplorable rubbish.

    For example, as part of his critique of ++Viganò's letter, the author writes, "an estimated 10 to 18 times as many unborn babies are murdered by contraception than surgical abortion." Any man who lacks the fundamental understanding that a creature needs to be alive before it can be murdered excludes himself ipso facto from consideration as an analyst to be taken seriously.

    Furthermore, his assessment of the bulk of the American population as, effectively, evil in se or else culpably condoning evil glibly overlooks the mitigation inherent in the fact that the whole of society has been subjected to a cradle-to-grave process of brainwashing and indoctrination that began even before I was born (i.e., the mid-1940s). The primary instruments in that process have been the Jєωιѕн-owned mass media and the Jєωιѕн-administered and Jєωιѕн-programmed public educational system, from first grade through graduate school. Because of the subversion within our own Church, its prelates offered little or no resistance to the mass indoctrination. Indeed, many of them worked with it hand in hand—think of most of the Council Fathers. Even while the Council was in session, careful observers, notably Léon de Poncins, delineated the scandalous extent of Jєωιѕн involvement and subversion and named many of the most culpable offenders. Not that it did much good, alas.

    Implicit in what ++Viganò writes to Trump is the archbishop's understanding that at least a majority of the American people—certainly a majority of white Christian, post-Christian, and once Christian Americans—would prefer good to evil (1) if they were helped to see what differentiated those concepts and (2) if their moral and material leaders, the people they respect and wish to be identified with, were seen to publicly repudiate evil and embrace good plainly and unapologetically. As such a thing hasn't happened in this country in the living memory of most CI members, it is hardly surprising that the mainstream media should wish to minimize public awareness of the archbishop's letter. Sadly, their wish is getting a lot of support from the subset of Trads addicted to sanctimoniousness.

    The larger world is well aware of the danger to their narrative that ++Viganò represents. So it is deplorable to see an uncomprehending Trad parvenu, like the author of this article, joining the enemy's attack.

    Offline Samson Option

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #51 on: June 12, 2020, 06:01:41 PM »
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  • Since Vigano has been resigned, as of age 75, now what?  He is still New Order, correct?   Does he give sacraments?  I take it, that he does.  He someone asks for the sacrament of Extreme Unction, will he give that sacrament or a mere blessing?

    If Vigano needs Extreme Unction, who will give it? A new order clergy? a mere blessing.

    I do question, if Vigano is of a changing heart, why does he stay new order?  If sees the wrongs of the new order church, what is his solution?

    Imperative questions. You have a good mind.

    Offline PAT317

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #52 on: June 12, 2020, 06:58:13 PM »
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  • Imperative questions. You have a good mind.
    They are mostly questions that anyone who knows the first thing about Archbishop Viganò would not be asking.  


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #53 on: June 12, 2020, 09:00:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    The larger world is well aware of the danger to their narrative that ++Viganò represents. So it is deplorable to see an uncomprehending Trad parvenu, like the author of this article, joining the enemy's attack.
    Great points, Claudel.  Some Trads are so used to fighting that the occasional Trad-friend who wanders in from the novus ordo desert is met with fire power, out of habit.  Sure, we have to be prudent and not trust everyone (ie I’m still hesitant about Cardinals Sarah, Burke and Schneider) but we can at least applaud Vigano’s truth when it is spoken.   And let’s not continue to pray for more Vigano truth-bombs, that he may prove genuine. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #54 on: June 12, 2020, 09:01:34 PM »
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  • Let’s not overlook the fact that neither Vigano or his translator (or both) did NOT add “St” before John XXIII or JPII.  That’s food for thought.  

    Offline Struthio

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    Not all of the points are great, Pax.

    For example, as part of his critique of ++Viganò's letter, the author writes, "an estimated 10 to 18 times as many unborn babies are murdered by contraception than surgical abortion." Any man who lacks the fundamental understanding that a creature needs to be alive before it can be murdered excludes himself ipso facto from consideration as an analyst to be taken seriously.

    There are so called contraceptive drugs, which actually are contraceptive and abortive. A high percentage of their "efficacy" is based on abortion. (This is not said to approve that dubious website.)


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #56 on: June 12, 2020, 09:20:54 PM »
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  • Let’s not overlook the fact that neither Vigano or his translator (or both) did NOT add “St” before John XXIII or JPII.  That’s food for thought.  

    On the blog of Marco Tosatti in the Italian text it's the same, including Paul VI.

    Offline claudel

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    Not all of the points are great, Pax.

    There are so called contraceptive drugs, which actually are contraceptive and abortive. A high percentage of their "efficacy" is based on abortion. (This is not said to approve that dubious website.)

    This is an irrelevancy. Contraception is not abortion, just as abortion is not contraception. If a drug company executive wants to call an abortifacient a contraceptive, he might be a liar, but his action has not changed reality.

    If the guy who wrote the article you feel so positive about had a deep concern about the truth of the matter you refer to, he would have written a separate article on the mislabeling of certain drugs. Even an anti-Viganò guy like you should be willing to admit that the author is inept at best, but evidently you prefer raising phony objections to my disclosure of his malice and incompetence to facing facts.

    Offline Geremia

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    Offline claudel

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #59 on: June 12, 2020, 10:04:07 PM »
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  • … I’m still hesitant about Cardinals Sarah, Burke and Schneider … 

    Indeed, I would go farther still about these three. I mistrust them utterly. Their Traditionalism strikes me as being somewhere between skin deep and completely bogus, and not one of them is fit to lace ++Viganò's shoes.