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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13313 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2020, 01:45:18 PM »
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  • He used the word “theorized” to distinguish from doctrine.  He was saying that V2’s non-doctrinal theories were anti Tradition and anti previously defined doctrine. He obviously believes, as many theologians have said (both pre and post V2), that not everything from an ecuмenical council is “doctrine” or “infallible”.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #31 on: June 11, 2020, 02:21:56 PM »
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  • Interestingly, I just realized that Vigano was ordained in March, 1968 (ie., Three months BEFORE Paul VI promulgated his Apostolic Constitution changing the forms of priestly ordination or episcopal consecration), so all other things being equal, there is NO DOUBT regarding the validity of his orders (nor of the orders of the bishop who ordained him).

    I had erroneously presumed otherwise.
    He is certainly a priest, but not bishop.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #32 on: June 11, 2020, 03:42:36 PM »
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  • He used the word “theorized” to distinguish from doctrine.  He was saying that V2’s non-doctrinal theories were anti Tradition and anti previously defined doctrine. He obviously believes, as many theologians have said (both pre and post V2), that not everything from an ecuмenical council is “doctrine” or “infallible”.
    Ok. I will wait for the day he grapples with the problem of a papally approved ecuмenical council stating heresy in an officially promulgated, Magisterial docuмent. 

    But excuse me, Pax, your assertion that "not everything from an ecuмenical council is 'doctrine' or 'infallible' " doesn't even come close to addressing the problem. 

    If the Archbishop explains the "problem" that way, I'd be disappointed, and shocked that he did so. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #33 on: June 11, 2020, 05:45:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    Ok. I will wait for the day he grapples with the problem of a papally approved ecuмenical council stating heresy in an officially promulgated, Magisterial docuмent. 
    It's not an Archbishop's job to fix the V2 crisis in the Church.  His job is to explain the problem, preach the truth and try to wake people up.  Only a future pope can fix this mess.  You're expectations are too high and also misplaced.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #34 on: June 11, 2020, 05:51:23 PM »
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  • Ok. I will wait for the day he grapples with the problem of a papally approved ecuмenical council stating heresy in an officially promulgated, Magisterial docuмent.
     
    The Holy Ghost will not permit that.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #35 on: June 11, 2020, 05:53:06 PM »
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  • It's not an Archbishop's job to fix the V2 crisis in the Church.  His job is to explain the problem, preach the truth and try to wake people up.  Only a future pope can fix this mess.  You're expectations are too high and also misplaced. 
    Yes. We are orphans wandering in the desert and one good shepherd has given us a big drink of water. Let's enjoy that and see what happens next before the nitpicking.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #36 on: June 11, 2020, 06:02:35 PM »
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  • Ok. I will wait for the day he grapples with the problem of a papally approved ecuмenical council stating heresy in an officially promulgated, Magisterial docuмent.

    There's no grappling needed, since the proposition is heretical.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #37 on: June 11, 2020, 06:05:02 PM »
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  • It's not an Archbishop's job to fix the V2 crisis in the Church.  His job is to explain the problem, preach the truth and try to wake people up.  Only a future pope can fix this mess.  You're expectations are too high and also misplaced.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


    I never said it was. He's seems to be an honest and intelligent man, and he recognizes the issues, so he'll confront this at some time and I'll You're expectations are too high and also misplaced

    Quote
    You're expectations are too high and also misplaced

    What expectations? That he'll think this through and grapple with this issue (as we all are) and offer his explanation?

    That's expecting too much?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #38 on: June 11, 2020, 06:18:50 PM »
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  • There's no grappling needed, since the proposition is heretical.
    ::)

    Alright, I'll ease your sense of the heretical and frame it this way:

    An elected pope who therefore appeared to be pope confirmed statements of an ecuмenical council of the bishops of the Catholic Church that is heretical.  

    As to heretical part, I'lI grant you dispute that.

    But didn't Vigano say there was heretical "theorizing" on religious liberty in DH?

    I'll go back and look. I think he said it contradicted Pius IX in Quanta Cuts or something - which wouldn't help you much.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #39 on: June 11, 2020, 08:00:46 PM »
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  • But didn't Vigano say there was heretical "theorizing" on religious liberty in DH?

    He said that the DH notion of Religious Liberty was at odds with Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

    EVERY error is contrary to Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium ... to VARYING DEGREES.  Some directly contradict the Deposit and defined dogma, others contradict it based on one more more logical degrees of separation.  And it's these logical degrees of separation that determine the theological note of the error (and the corresponding truth).  Dogmatic sedevacantists don't take heed of these notes of error, and it's one of the root causes of their dogmatism.  One could be guilty of very grave error, commit mortal sin against the faith, but the bar for heresy is quite high, and it is only for heresy properly speaking that people forfeit their membership in the Church.  So, for instance, John Daly can argue that RL contradicts Tradition and the Deposit and is therefore objectively heretical, and he could very well be right (and I don't dispute that he is), but the logic used to arrive at that conclusion prevents his conclusion from being anything more than a personal opinion which cannot bind the consciences and the faith of others de fide.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #40 on: June 11, 2020, 08:01:00 PM »
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  • Do you realize all Resistance and sedes (and in former days, the SSPX) are (or logically should be) in complete agreement with Vigano’s letter in the OP?

    So far as I can tell, the only thing he has yet to do in order for all to recognize he has arrived at Tradition, is to return to exclusive use of the old sacraments.

    The transformation of Vigano in the last month is very much what the conversion of Rome should look like.

    This is what the SSPX should have been looking for among the Roman clergy, Curia, and pope:

    An official recognition of the faulty principles of V2, and a rejection of them, and their encouragement and exhortation to the Church at large to reject them.

    If that would happen, there would be no need for Resistance, and such priests would be the most valued in the Church.

    Even sedes could happily be reconciled and supportive of such a movement.

    But so far, Vigano stands alone.

    Sorry, Sean. I missed that post earlier today.


    Let me use an argument ad hominem: It is Viganò himself who rejects your idea of An official recognition of the faulty principles of V2, and a rejection of them ...


    Quote from: Viganò
    Bishop Athanasius comments: “One may rightly hope and believe that a future Pope or Ecuмenical Council will correct the erroneous statement made” by Vatican II. This appears to me to be an argument that, although made with the best of intentions, undermines the Catholic edifice from its foundation. If in fact we admit that there may be Magisterial acts that, due to a changed sensitivity, are susceptible to abrogation, modification, or different interpretation with the passage of time, we inevitably fall under the condemnation of the Decree Lamentabili [...]

    A future Pope correcting errors of Vatican II would be guilty of modernism, says Viganò, and would undermine the Catholic edifice from its foundation. He rejects the Lefebvrite/Schneiderian idea: Rome must convert, a future Pope must scrub the heresies of Vatican II.

    DecemRationis has good reasons to say: I will wait for the day Viganò grapples with the paradoxon of a papally approved ecuмenical council stating heresy in an officially promulgated, Magisterial docuмent.




    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #41 on: June 11, 2020, 08:03:05 PM »
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  • It's almost as if Bishop Schneider is proposing an R&R type of approach, while Vigano rejects it and seems to be on a trajectory toward sedevacantism.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #42 on: June 11, 2020, 08:12:30 PM »
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  • It's almost as if Bishop Schneider is proposing an R&R type of approach, while Vigano rejects it and seems to be on a trajectory toward sedevacantism.

    Yes. And Viganò explains why R&R implies modernism and undermines the Catholic edifice from its foundation.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #43 on: June 11, 2020, 08:22:37 PM »
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  • He said that the DH notion of Religious Liberty was at odds with Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

    EVERY error is contrary to Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium ... to VARYING DEGREES.  Some directly contradict the Deposit and defined dogma [...]

    The papal condemnation of religious liberty is the textbook example of an infallible dogma which was defined before the Vatican Council defined papal infallibility. The wording appears to be chosen with foreknowledge of the later definition of infallibility, while probably the later definition of infallibility was worded based on the condemnation of religious liberty.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #44 on: June 12, 2020, 05:38:57 AM »
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  • He said that the DH notion of Religious Liberty was at odds with Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.

    EVERY error is contrary to Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium ... to VARYING DEGREES.  Some directly contradict the Deposit and defined dogma, others contradict it based on one more more logical degrees of separation.  And it's these logical degrees of separation that determine the theological note of the error (and the corresponding truth).  Dogmatic sedevacantists don't take heed of these notes of error, and it's one of the root causes of their dogmatism.  One could be guilty of very grave error, commit mortal sin against the faith, but the bar for heresy is quite high, and it is only for heresy properly speaking that people forfeit their membership in the Church.  So, for instance, John Daly can argue that RL contradicts Tradition and the Deposit and is therefore objectively heretical, and he could very well be right (and I don't dispute that he is), but the logic used to arrive at that conclusion prevents his conclusion from being anything more than a personal opinion which cannot bind the consciences and the faith of others de fide.

    He referenced Bishop Schneider's recent article, and said this, to be exact, with the paragraph given in full:


    Quote
    I read with great interest the essay of His Excellency Athanasius Schneider published on LifeSiteNews on June 1, subsequently translated into Italian by Chiesa e post concilio, entitled There is no divine positive will or natural right to the diversity of religions. His Excellency’s study summarizes, with the clarity that distinguishes the words of those who speak according to Christ, the objections against the presumed legitimacy of the exercise of religious freedom that the Second Vatican Council theorized, contradicting the testimony of Sacred Scripture and the voice of Tradition, as well as the Catholic Magisterium which is the faithful guardian of both.

    You fall over yourself prescinding from the word "heresy" and can quibble all you want about every "error" being contrary to Scripture in "varying degrees," but that's soft-pedaling and just so much spin about something which "contradicts the testimony of Sacred Scripture and the voice of Tradition, as well as the Catholic Magisterium."

    The Archbishop said that about an ecuмenical council approved by the man who was elected pope in a conclave of the Church. Even if one swallows your "not heresy" spin, that problem still is squarely there, dead center. As Struthio said somewhere with the nice addition of an appropriate word, that "paradox" remains, the central paradox that I believe the Archbishop will in one of his later letters show us the results of his "grappling" with, since it is unavoidable.

    And I point out to you - not wanting to take the time to respond to all of your responses to me on this subject - I have not accused a single other Catholic, certainly not Vigano whom I have commended, of heresy. Not one.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.