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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 26165 times)

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #165 on: June 15, 2020, 09:43:49 PM »
Quote from: St. Robert Bellarmine
For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one, on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly be taken from him: for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.

Great quote.

Puts all the moaning about not being able to say the V2 popes were "formal" heretics in perspective: a convenient evasion of the head(s) of the roaming monstrum.

Not to really add anything, but just to confirm:

Your quotes above of Gerard van Noort and Joaquín Salaverri S.J., theologians of the 20st century, show that they basically agree with St Robert. Both call it the more common opinion, and van Noort explains how theological reasoning for this opinion is strong.

Still the whole "Trad-world" is full of know-it-alls, who try to impede people to do the obvious: E.g.: Treat anyone attending or agreeing with or not rejecting those pagan Assisi events as a manifest heretic and outside of the Church. (just to name one example, same thing with V2, bastard mass, and much more)



Pax Vobis and Ladislaus: could you please quote any kind of authority authorizing you to run around and proclaiming that its not ok to call manifest heretics what they are? You've posted rivers of alphabetic characters, but you've failed to substantiate your ideas with evidence, no quote of a Saint, a Father, a theologian, at all.



Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #166 on: June 15, 2020, 09:55:02 PM »
Struthio, for the 18th time, I’ll repeat my objection.  You use the term “manifest heretic” in a different way than does +Bellarmine.  Admit that, and you can post all you want about Van Nort or St Thomas.  Just know that both of their definitions of heresy are also different from +Bellarmine’s and yours.  So you’re trying to piece together 4 different definitions of the word “heresy” and that’s why your conclusions make as much sense as a Protestant bible study group.


Pax, for the 1st time: Thank you for not further calling my propositions "illogical"! You seem to have learnt something. My post was worth the effort.



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #167 on: June 16, 2020, 05:14:54 AM »
This dispute is due to the error of attempting to apply the notion of material heresy to those who profess false religions, i.e., the claim that Protestants or Orthodox and the like can be "merely material" heretics ... with the equally-erroneous corollary that non-members of the Church can still be within the Church and therefore saved.

I doing so, they confounded the meaning of material heresy, claiming that it could apply to those in formal error so long as they were "sincere" in their error.

Others redefined the term so that material heresy no longer existed, claiming that heresy of its nature can only be formal, while so-called material heresy isn't heresy at all.

In reality, FORMAL heresy pertains to those who do not believe what they believe with the correct formal motive of faith, i.e. based on the teaching authority of the Church.  MATERIAL heresy is the holding of an objectively heretical proposition due to ignorance, THINKING that it was taught by the Church.  FORMALLY they believe the proposition due to the correct formal motive, believing in their ignorance that it was taught by the Church, but they are mistaken about the fact of whether it was taught by the Church.  THAT is the correct distinction that got warped into "sincerity" vs. "insincerity".
Lad,

Just so we're clear, I'm going to repeat my quote of Fr. Salaverri, since it doesn't show up when I quote you:


Quote
b) That merely material heretics, even if manifest, are members of the Church, is argued by Franzelin, De Groot, D’Herbigny, Caperan, Terrien, and a few others. But the contrary opinion is more common.[13]

[13] Those who include material heretics, even if manifest, in the Church: Franzelin, Theses de Ecclesia Christi, th. 23, pp. 402-423; J. V. de Groot, De Ecclesia, q. 8, a. 3; D’Herbigny, n. 355; L. Caperan, Le problème du salut des infidels (1912); J. B. Terrien, La grâce et la gloire I (1901) 330.

https://lumenscholasticuм.wordpress.com/2016/12/05/fr-salaverri-on-whether-heretics-apostates-schismatics-and-excommunicates-are-members-of-the-church/#_ftn13

So when you say "the dispute is due to the error of attempting to apply the notion of material heresy to those who profess false religions . . . with the equally false corollary that non-members of the Church can still be within the Church and  therefore saved," you are saying that Franzelin et al. were supporting that position and taking that side in the "dispute."
I find it hard to believe that Franzelin et al. were "attempt[ing]" to do that, but maybe you're right. 

I plan  on doing some study on this, and maybe I'll start another thread soon - it's an important issue. 


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #168 on: June 16, 2020, 05:19:27 AM »
You also then cling to the erroneous notion of the formal vs. material distinction, where formal heresy is tied to sincerity and culpability, the internal vs. external forum.  This is simply wrong.
Perhaps I'm wrong. If so, then I'd be happy to be corrected. I do not want to rest in a place of error on anything. 

What I'm not wrong about is the falsity of the claim that Struthio was being "illogical" for saying "a material heretic is not a heretic." That's really just saying that someone is not a heretic for expressing a material heresy. 

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #169 on: June 16, 2020, 06:45:18 AM »
Yes, I watched this excellent video a few days ago.  Fr Jenkins also brings up his concerns over the Trump letter due to the Naturalism contained in it.  

And that would mean Bp. Vigano is ”judaized”, according to Father Denis Fahey.

Judaized, as in Opus judei.  :jester: