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Author Topic: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops  (Read 43810 times)

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Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2022, 04:36:15 AM »
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  • The SSPX weren't so silent when it was time to push the abortion tainted kill shots on their followers. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #31 on: July 07, 2022, 07:34:56 AM »
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  • The SSPX weren't so silent when it was time to push the abortion tainted kill shots on their followers. 

    I would say that they fell short of PUSHING the jabs ... but they certainly went to great lengths to justify taking them, to clear the roadblocks that people's consciences might have overwise placed in the way of accepting them.  As a result, I believe that they have deaths on their hands ... not to mention the grave moral evil.  I know of a couple Trad Catholics who received the jab while citing the SSPX as the moral justification for it.  And, honestly, you can't blame a layman for accepting guidance from SSPX.  So the SSPX will be held accountable rather than the individuals who accepted their advice (excepting those who were not in good faith but wanted to use the jab and merely used the SSPX opinion to rationalize their position, but that's a matter for God to judge.)


    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #32 on: July 07, 2022, 07:56:19 AM »
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  • Poor +Lefebvre must be turning in his grave.

    Unfortunately his legacy was a contradictory position of assigning Christ's authority to heretics and the obligation to resist them.

    Compromises were inevitable and due to the SSPX's evil choices the whole of southeastern Europe has ZERO priests and naive traditionalists are adoring bread every Sunday.

    The R&R position is truly unsustainable, you have to outright reject the heretics or you end up with false sacraments, false annulments and false ecclesiology.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #33 on: July 07, 2022, 08:11:36 AM »
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  • I would say that they fell short of PUSHING the jabs ... but they certainly went to great lengths to justify taking them, to clear the roadblocks that people's consciences might have overwise placed in the way of accepting them.  As a result, I believe that they have deaths on their hands ... not to mention the grave moral evil.  I know of a couple Trad Catholics who received the jab while citing the SSPX as the moral justification for it.  And, honestly, you can't blame a layman for accepting guidance from SSPX.  So the SSPX will be held accountable rather than the individuals who accepted their advice (excepting those who were not in good faith but wanted to use the jab and merely used the SSPX opinion to rationalize their position, but that's a matter for God to judge.)

    I recall during the height of the moral debate regarding whether the “Vax” could ever be taken under any circuмstances (a question upon which I personally was unable to come to any solid conclusion, but which was nevertheless made moot by the 2008 CDF docuмent Dignitas Personae regarding abortion-tainted “vaccines,” which among other non-present qualifiers said using such shots was only morally licit in the absence of any other available treatments, like ivermectin, HCQ, et al), it came out that the Society had chosen to comply with the New Zealand edict that stated all school personnel must be “Vaxed,” arguing that it would be a shame to have to close such a good school after so much time and money...

    Holding that thought, another (Resistance) priest wrote to me that many countries required the Vax for admission, so that refusing would be tantamount to abandoning the apostolate and souls (a variant of Fr. Selegny’s hospital/last rites argument), so the decision is not so easy.

    In both cases, I was reminded of how throughout history, when the faith was persecuted (eg., in England at/after Henry VIII), priests infiltrated the country illegally, because the necessity of souls demanded it.  They did not reason that because souls demand it, we will comply with illegitimate or overreaching laws.  Quite the opposite, they rightly resolved to do what needed doing regardless of the laws.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #34 on: July 07, 2022, 08:13:57 AM »
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  • Poor +Lefebvre must be turning in his grave.

    Unfortunately his legacy was a contradictory position of assigning Christ's authority to heretics and the obligation to resist them.

    Compromises were inevitable and due to the SSPX's evil choices the whole of southeastern Europe has ZERO priests and naive traditionalists are adoring bread every Sunday.

    The R&R position is truly unsustainable, you have to outright reject the heretics or you end up with false sacraments, false annulments and false ecclesiology.

    There should be a ghetto for this burnt out debate, which always and infallibly ends with wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #35 on: July 07, 2022, 08:16:07 AM »
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  • There should be a ghetto for this burnt out debate, which always and infallibly ends with wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Except it is validly connected to the question of SSPX silence.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #36 on: July 07, 2022, 08:20:29 AM »
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  • Except it is validly connected to the question of SSPX silence. 

    I don’t think so:

    The SSPX had no problem speaking out against modernism from 1970-2012, so RR cannot be a cause of silence (unless you’re saying that they largely dropped the second R, and that’s the cause of silence...in which case I would agree).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #37 on: July 07, 2022, 09:47:54 AM »
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  • I don’t think so:

    The SSPX had no problem speaking out against modernism from 1970-2012, so RR cannot be a cause of silence (unless you’re saying that they largely dropped the second R, and that’s the cause of silence...in which case I would agree).

    One could argue that it's indirectly the cause of the silence.  When you hold that a man is the legitimate Vicar of Christ, the sensus Catholicus inexorably draws Catholics to attempt to be in submission to and in communion with the Vicar of Christ.

    In other words, the refusal to at least QUESTION and DOUBT the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants led to the negotiations and attempts at reconciliation, which then in turn led to their not publicly criticizing them or making statements that might jeopardize the reunification movement.

    If I were certain that Bergoglio is the pope, I would have been back in communion with him somehow ... yesterday, whether it's in the Eastern Rite or FSSP/Motu (and their "legitimacy" would also guarantee for me that their Holy Orders are not doubtful, for the Church cannot promulgate invalid Sacramental Rites).

    Conversely, given that their legitimacy is highly doubtful, and it's much more possible that these are non- and anti- Catholic Antipopes, I wouldn't feel the least bit inclined toward seeking any kind of reconciliation with them, but would view them as mortal enemies of the faith.

    Regardless of your opinion on some of these issues, it can't be denied that the Catholic instinct (sensus) strongly draws Catholics toward submission to the Pope.  Those who have no concern whatsoever with being separated from the Vicar of Christ either 1) (at least secretly) harbor doubts about their legitimacy or 2) have had their Catholic sensibilities eroded so badly that they have completely extinguished this eminently-Catholic sensibility.  And that latter is precisely why I've been so vocal of this particular articulation of R&R that's been made here on CI.

    Archbishop Lefebvre retained that sensibility:
    Quote
    “Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the pope is heretic or an impostor or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true. If any man is important in the Church it is the pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    And yet many modern R&R have in fact adopted this stance that the pope question is not particularly important.  Believing him to be the pope, the attitude of "Who cares what he teaches?" is completely alien and contrary to a core Catholic sensibility, the one sensibility in fact which distinguishes a Catholic from an Old Catholic, Eastern Orthodox schismatic, or even Protestant.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #38 on: July 07, 2022, 10:05:54 AM »
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  • One could argue that it's indirectly the cause of the silence.  When you hold that a man is the legitimate Vicar of Christ, the sensus Catholicus inexorably draws Catholics to attempt to be in submission to and in communion with the Vicar of Christ.

    In other words, the refusal to at least QUESTION and DOUBT the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants led to the negotiations and attempts at reconciliation, which then in turn led to their not publicly criticizing them or making statements that might jeopardize the reunification movement.

    If I were certain that Bergoglio is the pope, I would have been back in communion with him somehow ... yesterday, whether it's in the Eastern Rite or FSSP/Motu (and their "legitimacy" would also guarantee for me that their Holy Orders are not doubtful, for the Church cannot promulgate invalid Sacramental Rites).

    Conversely, given that their legitimacy is highly doubtful, and it's much more possible that these are non- and anti- Catholic Antipopes, I wouldn't feel the least bit inclined toward seeking any kind of reconciliation with them, but would view them as mortal enemies of the faith.

    Regardless of your opinion on some of these issues, it can't be denied that the Catholic instinct (sensus) strongly draws Catholics toward submission to the Pope.  Those who have no concern whatsoever with being separated from the Vicar of Christ either 1) (at least secretly) harbor doubts about their legitimacy or 2) have had their Catholic sensibilities eroded so badly that they have completely extinguished this eminently-Catholic sensibility.  And that latter is precisely why I've been so vocal of this particular articulation of R&R that's been made here on CI.

    Archbishop Lefebvre retained that sensibility:
    And yet many modern R&R have in fact adopted this stance that the pope question is not particularly important.  Believing him to be the pope, the attitude of "Who cares what he teaches?" is completely alien and contrary to a core Catholic sensibility, the one sensibility in fact which distinguishes a Catholic from an Old Catholic, Eastern Orthodox schismatic, or even Protestant.

    The Lefebvre quote you supplied was directed primarily against sedevacantists, with a Lefebvre lamenting that their spirit had even creeped into some in the Society.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mike Henderson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #39 on: July 07, 2022, 11:32:38 AM »
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  • After all posters on this forum are dead ~60 or so years from now we may see the last validly ordained SSPX priests pass on. . . . 
    The world won't sit still for 60 days, much less 60 years.  At the rate things are going, neither will the SSPX be able to afford to stand still.  In any event, Bergoglio's demise will set off a chain reaction whose results we likely cannot imagine.

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #40 on: July 07, 2022, 11:58:03 AM »
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  • One could argue that it's indirectly the cause of the silence.  When you hold that a man is the legitimate Vicar of Christ, the sensus Catholicus inexorably draws Catholics to attempt to be in submission to and in communion with the Vicar of Christ.

    In other words, the refusal to at least QUESTION and DOUBT the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants led to the negotiations and attempts at reconciliation, which then in turn led to their not publicly criticizing them or making statements that might jeopardize the reunification movement.

    If I were certain that Bergoglio is the pope, I would have been back in communion with him somehow ... yesterday, whether it's in the Eastern Rite or FSSP/Motu (and their "legitimacy" would also guarantee for me that their Holy Orders are not doubtful, for the Church cannot promulgate invalid Sacramental Rites).

    Conversely, given that their legitimacy is highly doubtful, and it's much more possible that these are non- and anti- Catholic Antipopes, I wouldn't feel the least bit inclined toward seeking any kind of reconciliation with them, but would view them as mortal enemies of the faith.

    Regardless of your opinion on some of these issues, it can't be denied that the Catholic instinct (sensus) strongly draws Catholics toward submission to the Pope.  Those who have no concern whatsoever with being separated from the Vicar of Christ either 1) (at least secretly) harbor doubts about their legitimacy or 2) have had their Catholic sensibilities eroded so badly that they have completely extinguished this eminently-Catholic sensibility.  And that latter is precisely why I've been so vocal of this particular articulation of R&R that's been made here on CI.

    Archbishop Lefebvre retained that sensibility:
    And yet many modern R&R have in fact adopted this stance that the pope question is not particularly important.  Believing him to be the pope, the attitude of "Who cares what he teaches?" is completely alien and contrary to a core Catholic sensibility, the one sensibility in fact which distinguishes a Catholic from an Old Catholic, Eastern Orthodox schismatic, or even Protestant.
    https://twitter.com/Michael_J_Matt/status/1543758187265986561

    It's not just on CI, this is the de facto RnR stance at this point. If Francis were the pope I would be vicious on here, even though I disagree with that pinesap kid in that EENS debate with the Dimonds he is right that RnR is a potentially schismatic position, even if the "Holy Father" has granted SSPX some kind of sacramental faculty you are still potentially giving grave scandal by attending.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #41 on: July 07, 2022, 12:00:39 PM »
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  • he is right that RnR is a schismatic position,

    Except that it’s endorsed by all the greatest theologians in Church history, in addition to Vigano, Lefebvre, Laszlo, de Castro Mayer...
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #42 on: July 07, 2022, 12:03:28 PM »
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  • Except that it’s endorsed by all the greatest theologians in Church history, in addition to Vigano, Lefebvre, Laszlo, de Castro Mayer...
    The Resistance is sedeprivationism so it is hard to say your position enjoys this endorsement. As much as I agree with Fr. Chazal and I enjoy his genius Cajetan disagrees with him.
    Regard all of my posts as unfounded slander, heresy, theologically specious etc
    I accept Church teaching on Implicit Baptism of Desire.
    Francis is Pope.
    NO is a good Mass.
    Not an ironic sig.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #43 on: July 07, 2022, 12:07:02 PM »
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  • The Resistance is sedeprivationism so it is hard to say your position enjoys this endorsement. As much as I agree with Fr. Chazal and I enjoy his genius Cajetan disagrees with him.

    We reject sedeprivationism, and the pseudo distinction upon which that invention rests.

    Instead, we stick to what the theologians have taught regarding necessity as a cause dispensing from obedience to a superior’s unreasonable will:

    Quite #1:

    5th Principle: It is the character of the state of necessity to suspend the superior's power of binding, and if, nevertheless, he attempts to bind, what he commands is not binding
    Further applying the example already given regarding natural law, this principle is illustrated by the case of a husband who not only placed his children in necessity or failed to provide for them, but, who, moreover, prevented his wife from providing for them as far as was in her power. It is obvious that in such a case the husband's power to bind would be suspended, and if he attempted to bind, his command would not be binding upon his wife.
    The fact that in the case of Archbishop Lefebvre the superior is the pope does not nullify this principle. The Vicar of Christ first and foremost has the duty to provide for the needs of souls, and if he does not provide for them (or, worse, if he himself is the cause or part-cause of the grave and general state of spiritual necessity), that does not entitle him to prevent others from providing as far as they can for the needs of souls. This is especially applicable if the duty to supply is rooted in their own sacerdotal or, still more, episcopal state.
    The authority of the pope is indeed unlimited, but from below, not from above. >From above, papal power is limited by divine law, natural and positive. The authority of the pope is "monarchical...and absolute within the limits, however, of divine law, natural and positive" and for that reason "the Roman Pontiff himself cannot act against divine law or disregard it."3 Now, in the state of necessity, divine natural and positive law imposes a duty of charity under pain of mortal sin upon whoever is able to provide help, and in the state of spiritual necessity it imposes this duty above all on bishops and upon priests {as well as on the pope). The pope, as like any other superior, does not have the power to oppose this duty {Suarez: " deest potestas in legislatore ad obligandum" De Legibus, L. VI, cap. VII, n.ll).
    That is why it is said that "the state of necessity carries its own dispensation with it because necessity is not subject to law" {SI; I-II, Q.96, A.6). This is not to mean that in the state of necessity it is lawful to do whatever one wishes, but that "the action otherwise prohibited is rendered lawful and permitted by the state of necessity ."4This is in order to safeguard higher interests than obedience to the law or to the Superior. In such a case it is not within the power of any superior to demand the observance of the law in the usual way, because to no superior {and still less to the pope) is it granted to exercise authority harmful to anyone else, especially if that harm is spiritual and involves many souls and violates one's duty of state, especially that of a priest or bishop.
    Not even God, the Supreme Legislator, is bound in the state of necessity ."That is why Christ Himself excuses David, who in grave danger ate the breads of proposition which the laity were forbidden to eat by Divine Law."5 According to this principle, not only do human laws cease to oblige in a state of necessity, but even divine-positive and affirmative divine-natural law cease (e.g., "Honor thy father and mother"; "Remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day"). The only law binding in the state of necessity is negative divine-natural law {e.g., "Thou shalt not kill," etc.) . This is because negative divine-natural law prohibits actions that are intrinsically evil and hence forbidden because they are evil, as opposed to actions which are evil only because they are forbidden, such as the consecration of bishops without pontifical mandate.”
     

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #44 on: July 07, 2022, 12:08:59 PM »
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  • We reject sedeprivationism, and the pseudo distinction upon which that invention rests.

    Instead, we stick to what the theologians have taught regarding necessity as a cause dispensing from obedience to a superior’s unreasonable will:

    Quite #1:

    5th Principle: It is the character of the state of necessity to suspend the superior's power of binding, and if, nevertheless, he attempts to bind, what he commands is not binding
    Further applying the example already given regarding natural law, this principle is illustrated by the case of a husband who not only placed his children in necessity or failed to provide for them, but, who, moreover, prevented his wife from providing for them as far as was in her power. It is obvious that in such a case the husband's power to bind would be suspended, and if he attempted to bind, his command would not be binding upon his wife.
    The fact that in the case of Archbishop Lefebvre the superior is the pope does not nullify this principle. The Vicar of Christ first and foremost has the duty to provide for the needs of souls, and if he does not provide for them (or, worse, if he himself is the cause or part-cause of the grave and general state of spiritual necessity), that does not entitle him to prevent others from providing as far as they can for the needs of souls. This is especially applicable if the duty to supply is rooted in their own sacerdotal or, still more, episcopal state.
    The authority of the pope is indeed unlimited, but from below, not from above. >From above, papal power is limited by divine law, natural and positive. The authority of the pope is "monarchical...and absolute within the limits, however, of divine law, natural and positive" and for that reason "the Roman Pontiff himself cannot act against divine law or disregard it."3 Now, in the state of necessity, divine natural and positive law imposes a duty of charity under pain of mortal sin upon whoever is able to provide help, and in the state of spiritual necessity it imposes this duty above all on bishops and upon priests {as well as on the pope). The pope, as like any other superior, does not have the power to oppose this duty {Suarez: " deest potestas in legislatore ad obligandum" De Legibus, L. VI, cap. VII, n.ll).
    That is why it is said that "the state of necessity carries its own dispensation with it because necessity is not subject to law" {SI; I-II, Q.96, A.6). This is not to mean that in the state of necessity it is lawful to do whatever one wishes, but that "the action otherwise prohibited is rendered lawful and permitted by the state of necessity ."4This is in order to safeguard higher interests than obedience to the law or to the Superior. In such a case it is not within the power of any superior to demand the observance of the law in the usual way, because to no superior {and still less to the pope) is it granted to exercise authority harmful to anyone else, especially if that harm is spiritual and involves many souls and violates one's duty of state, especially that of a priest or bishop.
    Not even God, the Supreme Legislator, is bound in the state of necessity ."That is why Christ Himself excuses David, who in grave danger ate the breads of proposition which the laity were forbidden to eat by Divine Law."5 According to this principle, not only do human laws cease to oblige in a state of necessity, but even divine-positive and affirmative divine-natural law cease (e.g., "Honor thy father and mother"; "Remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day"). The only law binding in the state of necessity is negative divine-natural law {e.g., "Thou shalt not kill," etc.) . This is because negative divine-natural law prohibits actions that are intrinsically evil and hence forbidden because they are evil, as opposed to actions which are evil only because they are forbidden, such as the consecration of bishops without pontifical mandate.”


    Quote #2:

    6th Principle: It is the character of necessity to place the subject in the physical or moral impossibility of obeying
    It is certain that God binds nobody in a state of necessity, but the human legislator "can say 'no' without reason and in violation of natural and eternal law"6 and therefore they can in fact forbid an action required by the state of necessity. But, since the pope's "No" is powerless to do away with the grave general necessity of souls and hence the associated duty sub gravito go to their help, the subject, especially if he is a bishop or priest, then finds himself in the moral and absoluteimpossibility of obeying, because he could not obey without himself sinning and harming others. Hence, it is the character of the state of necessity "to create a sort of impotency whereby it is impossible to do something commanded or not do some- thing forbidden."7
    This is not, in fact, the case of authority not being bound to oblige because" summum ius summa iniuria," or one which issues an inopportune command lacking in prudence, but which nevertheless people could be bound to obey all the same in view of the common good. This is, on the other hand, the case of authority that cannot oblige, because its command is opposed to a precept of divine and natural law "more grave and obliging."8 In such a case to obey the law or the legislator would be "evil and a sin" (Suarez, De Legibus, L. VI, c. VII, n.8). St. Thomas calls obedience in such a case "evil" (SI; 11-11, Q120, A.1). Cajetan refers to it as a "vice" (Cajetan in 1.2, q.96, a.6). Hence, refusal to obey becomes a duty (i.e" inoboedientia debita).9
    The reality of such a case is not that the subject is disobeying. It is better said that he is obeying a higher and more compelling command issuing from divine authority, which "commands us to regard higher interests."10 Human authority , in fact, "is neither the first nor the only rule of morality ."6 Earthly authority is a" norma normata, "that is to say, a rule itself regulated by divine law, and hence when human authority, "contrary to natural and eternal law,"says "No," then disobeying man in order to obey God becomes a duty."11

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."