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Author Topic: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops  (Read 44110 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
« Reply #210 on: July 11, 2022, 04:54:47 PM »
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  • I am not defending BOD here; that's not what this is about. I am pointing out an inconsistency in Lad's position.


    There is no inconsistency.  You cling to your false dichotomy that either there can be or there can't be error in the Magisterium.  I've never said and have repeatedly denied the premise of your assertion of inconsistency, that there absolutely cannot be error in the Magisterium.  But you keep straw-manning that as my position in order to re-assert the same claim over and over again, while ignoring the distinctions that I articulated.  In addition to that, I deny that the Catholic Magisterium has ever actively taught BoD, but at best merely tolerated it as a tenable.  Even Byzcat (who's no Feeneyite to say the least) agreed with it.  But that's outside the scope of this discussion.  It suffices that I have never stated that there can absolutely be no error in the Magisterium.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #211 on: July 11, 2022, 04:56:12 PM »
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  • Absolutely and utter garbage in your post.  As the last dozen times I've hade to make these same distinctions for you, they go right over your head, and  you ignore them, and repost the same crap.  I see that I'll have to translate it down to the kindergarten level for you to comprehend.  But, then, I don't think you really don't get it.  I don't think you want to get it, since you're invested in your heresy.

    You keep repeating the same idiotic dichotomy that i rejected based on the distinctions I made (and which you continue to ignore) and gratuitously dismiss as "irrelevant" simply because you either can't or (more likely) won't understand them.

    You continue to pertinaciously promote heresy and you'll have to answer to God for it.

    I'm shaking in my boots. 

    True to your MO, you resort to insult to cover your utter failure to get the gist of the argument. That is the distinction of the moment, the Lad distinction only too common. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #212 on: July 11, 2022, 04:58:29 PM »
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  • True to your MO, you resort to insult to cover your utter failure to get the gist of the argument. That is the distinction of the moment, the Lad distinction only too common.


    No, I resort to frustration with having to repeat the same thing over and over again.  I fully understand your "argument" and it's based on a false dichotomy predicated on your strawmanning my position ... repeatedly.  Try expressing your argument succinctly as a syllogism or syllogisms stead of basically re-pasting the same over and over again and then maybe that'll help you see it.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #213 on: July 11, 2022, 05:05:14 PM »
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  • There is no inconsistency.  You cling to your false dichotomy that either there can be or there can't be error in the Magisterium.  I've never said and have repeatedly denied the premise of your assertion of inconsistency, that there absolutely cannot be error in the Magisterium.  But you keep straw-manning that as my position in order to re-assert the same claim over and over again, while ignoring the distinctions that I articulated.

    You agree that the Magisterium can commit error regarding how one is justified and how the grace of God can work to save man, as in BOD. And yet you see no consequence in that to your theory of indefectibility, especially in light of the reason for it, as I showed in a quote from Fenton a few passages back: so that we can trust the Church speaks with the voice of Christ regarding the faith.

    If we can't trust the Church to get BOD right in Trent and its universal, ordinary teaching, and that's what you say . . . 

    You don't see the ramifications of that and what it holds for your theory? 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #214 on: July 11, 2022, 05:06:36 PM »
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  • Absolutely and utter garbage in your post.  As the last dozen times I've hade to make these same distinctions for you, they go right over your head, and  you ignore them, and repost the same crap.  I see that  to comprehend.  But, then, I don't think you really don't get it.  I don't think you want to get it, since you're invested in your heresy.

    You keep repeating the same idiotic dichotomy that I rejected based on the distinctions I made (and which you continue to ignore) and gratuitously dismiss as "irrelevant" simply because you either can't or (more likely) won't understand them.  All you seem to understand is "either there's error in the Magisterium or there isn't".  You completely ignore the fact that I do not deny that there CAN be error in the Magisterium, but not the DEGREE of error that you blasphemously attribute to the Catholic Church.

    You continue to pertinaciously promote heresy and you'll have to answer to God for it.

    So this sanctimonious ******** is in action again

    Same bad manners and obnoxious behavior, just a different opponent:

    But return the favor to make the point, and its "outrageous!"  He doesn't get it. (He won't allow himself to get it, but instead spends his time fending it off).

    Apparently, "'tis for thee, but not for me."

    [Of course, Meg gets a quick swipe earlier, but Matthew has determined she is fair game here]

    1) "utter garbage"
    2) "over your head"
    3) "same crap"
    4) "I'll have to translate it down to the kindergarten level for you"
    5) "invested in your heresy" (Once again, every opponent is a heretic);
    6) "idiotic"
    7) "you continue to ignore" (uh, really?  You mean, continue to refute?)

    And here comes the dinger which ends every post to an opponent:

    8) "You continue to pertinaciously promote heresy and you'll have to answer to God for it."

    You know what comes next (and it comes every time he gets his butt kicked, like DR is doing):

    "I demand a retraction!"

    I think I'll do as every other RR poster of any talent or merit has done here, and just say goodbye.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #215 on: July 11, 2022, 05:09:12 PM »
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  • No, I resort to frustration with having to repeat the same thing over and over again.  I fully understand your "argument" and it's based on a false dichotomy predicated on your strawmanning my position ... repeatedly.  Try expressing your argument succinctly as a syllogism or syllogisms stead of basically re-pasting the same over and over again and then maybe that'll help you see it.

    I know your position: it's inconsistent with your claim that the Magisterium is wrong about BOD. If it can go off on the rails regarding a matter of justification, salvation, the grace of GOD . . . it loses its credibility on all grounds. Those things are the "telos" of the Church. 

    You are in no position to attack the R & R for "rejecting the Magisterium," which your position shows to not be worthy of credence as to the very things it exists for. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #216 on: July 11, 2022, 05:13:36 PM »
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  • So this sanctimonious dickhead is in action again (apparently under Matthew's protection for no other reason that that his 30,000 posts generate traffic)???

    Same bad manners and obnoxious behavior, just a different opponent:

    Evidently your are incapable of comprehending the depths of your hypocrisy.  You accuse me of bad manners and obnoxious behavior with a post, the crudeness of which eclipses anything I've written.  Between calling me a sodomite and now using that extremely vulgar (and impure) expression above, you've sunk to new lows.  Closest I've come is "idiot" and referring to a post as "crap" or "garbage".  Would you like me to dig up all the times you've called posters (other than myself) "idiot"s?  But do please find where I've called people "sodomites" and "homos" or used expressions akin to your vulgar "sanctimonious ...head" above.

    And you also embed a slander against Matthew by accusing him of tolerating me due to traffic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #217 on: July 11, 2022, 05:25:25 PM »
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  • You are in no position to attack the R & R for "rejecting the Magisterium," which your position shows to not be worthy of credence as to the very things it exists for.


    Yet another strawman, but that's all you have is strawmen.  I never denied that one could respectfully disagree with a given teaching of the Magisterium.  What I said is that you can't attribute a corruption of the Magisterium (and of the Church's Public Worship) to the extent that it justifies and even necessitates severing communion with and subjection to the Holy See in order to "remain faithful to Tradition".  And I also said that it's not Catholic to deride and excoriate the Magisterium of the (one you claim is) the Vicar of Christ ... as Johnson did.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #218 on: July 11, 2022, 05:55:30 PM »
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  • Sauce for the goose -- both Sean and Ladidlaus are major posters, with a large post count.

    (BTW, banning someone doesn't automatically remove all their posts.)
    But it's hard to say who posts more in a month these days -- Sean Johnson or Ladislaus. I couldn't even tell you who posts more per month now.

    So if Sean can allege that I tolerate Lad because of his ongoing posts on CI, couldn't Lad throw the same charge at me, merely replacing the name? (Sean Johnson instead of Ladislaus)

    That argument really is neither here nor there, since it could equally be applied to either of them.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #219 on: July 11, 2022, 06:11:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: SeanJohnson 7/11/2022, 5:06:36 PM
    So this sanctimonious ******** is in action again

    Same bad manners and obnoxious behavior, just a different opponent:

    But return the favor to make the point, and its "outrageous!"  He doesn't get it. (He won't allow himself to get it, but instead spends his time fending it off).

    Apparently, "'tis for thee, but not for me."

    [Of course, Meg gets a quick swipe earlier, but Matthew has determined she is fair game here]

    1) "utter garbage"
    2) "over your head"
    3) "same crap"
    4) "I'll have to translate it down to the kindergarten level for you"
    5) "invested in your heresy" (Once again, every opponent is a heretic);
    6) "idiotic"
    7) "you continue to ignore" (uh, really?  You mean, continue to refute?)

    And here comes the dinger which ends every post to an opponent:

    8) "You continue to pertinaciously promote heresy and you'll have to answer to God for it."

    You know what comes next (and it comes every time he gets his butt kicked, like DR is doing):

    "I demand a retraction!"

    I think I'll do as every other RR poster of any talent or merit has done here, and just say goodbye.
    Hypocrite.

    Names you recently called Ladislaus:
    sanctimonious dickhead
    Homo
    idiot
    heretical ass
    dumbass
    sodomitic
    moron
    dishonest sodomite

    I know there were others, but they seem to be gone.  


    You have the audacity to complain that he said "over your head"?

    He deserves a retraction, for sure, for your homo calumny.

    As for your comment "I think I'll do as every other RR poster of any talent or merit has done here, and just say goodbye,"  please do.  

    I may be new, but I sure am tired of foul mouths on supposed-Catholics and childish temper tantrums when men don't get their way.  (Haven't see the women behave this way.)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #220 on: July 11, 2022, 06:20:12 PM »
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  • I never denied that one could respectfully disagree with a given teaching of the Magisterium.  
    But can a Catholic truly do that?  What about religious assent?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #221 on: July 11, 2022, 06:24:12 PM »
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  • I think I'll do as every other RR poster of any talent or merit has done here, and just say goodbye.


    Archbishop Lefebvre:
    Quote
    ltimately I agree with you; it's not possible that the Pope, who is protected by the Holy Ghost, could do things like this.  There we agree; it's not possible, it doesn't fit, this destruction of the Church ...

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #222 on: July 11, 2022, 06:30:52 PM »
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  •  What I said is that you can't attribute a corruption of the Magisterium (and of the Church's Public Worship) to the extent that it justifies and even necessitates severing communion with and subjection to the Holy See in order to "remain faithful to Tradition".  

    Your "no extensive corruption" theory is an utter novelty. It is not the pre-Vatican II teaching of the popes and theologians, like you try to posture yourself as adopting and applying to the R & R. According to that teaching, t
    he Church is free from error, indefectible in her OUM when teaching about the faith and the Gospel, such as in its teaching on BOD. It has the voice of Christ there: could Christ teach erroneously about justification, the sacraments, grace?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #223 on: July 11, 2022, 06:57:16 PM »
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  • But can a Catholic truly do that?  What about religious assent?

    It's rather complicated, but religious assent is distinguished from "assent without reservation">
    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

    Msgr. Fenton is speaking here (cited below) about papal encyclicals, but it would apply a fortiori to less-authoritative expressions of the Magisterium as well.  Then, even within Encyclicals, it would depend on whether it appeared as if the pope were attempting to authoritatively teach something or else was just merely expounding on a subject.  Certainly, we don't read a papal encyclical as we would Sacred Scripture, as if every word were inspired or inerrant.
    Quote
    Hence it follows that the authority of the encyclicals is not at all the same as that of the solemn definition, the one properly so-called. The definition demands an assent without reservation and makes a formal act of faith obligatory. The case of the encyclical’s authority is not the same.

    This authority (of the papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great. It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church.

    Ultimately, however, this assent is not the same as the one demanded in the formal act of faith. Strictly speaking, it is possible that this teaching (proposed in the encyclical letter) is subject to error. There are a thousand reasons to believe that it is not. It has probably never been (erroneous), and it is normally certain that it will never be. But, absolutely speaking, it could be, because God does not guarantee it as He guarantees the teaching formulated by way of definition’.

    Lercher teaches that the internal assent due to these pronouncements cannot be called certain according to the strictest philosophical meaning of the term. The assent given to such propositions is interpretative condicionatus, including the tacit condition that the teaching is accepted as true “unless the Church should at some time peremptorially define otherwise or unless the decision should be discovered to be erroneous.

    So internal assent is an attitude of "infinite respect," where we give it every benefit of the doubt, assume that it's true/correct unless proven otherwise, and even then we are not permitted "to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion."  INTERNAL assent, however, means that's it's not enough just to shut up about it while internally thinking "that's a bunch of garbage".  It should be a sincere and interior respect and benefit of the doubt and assumption that it's true unless proven otherwise.

    This is precisely why I took SeanJohnson to task over his arrogant and disrespectful excoriation of Bergogio's latest "Magisterium."  If you believe this is the Vicar of Christ, then it is a grave thing indeed to take that attitude toward his teaching.  You accept it with respect and reverence, and only respectfully disagree where it's clearly in error.  This haughty attitude of just dismissing anything taught by the man they hold to be the Vicar of Christ is simply not Catholic.  That is one of the pernicious fruits of R&R, the erosion of the respect due to the authority of the Magisterium and to the Holy Father.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Impressive Silence: The SSPX Bishops
    « Reply #224 on: July 11, 2022, 07:08:41 PM »
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  • Your "no extensive corruption" theory is an utter novelty. It is not the pre-Vatican II teaching of the popes and theologians, like you try to posture yourself as adopting and applying to the R & R. According to that teaching, t
    he Church is free from error, indefectible in her OUM when teaching about the faith and the Gospel, such as in its teaching on BOD. It has the voice of Christ there: could Christ teach erroneously about justification, the sacraments, grace?


    No, it's not.  It's a term I use to summarily describe the distinctions made by theologians.  Your heresy that the Church Magisterium and the Mass can become so corrupt as to require breaking communion with the hierarchy is the novelty ... unless you count the fact that the Old Catholics came up with it before you did.  I defy ANY of you to find a pre-V2 Catholic theologian that believes to be possible.

    Popes have repeatedly taught that the Magisterium is inerrant and has never been nor can be tainted with error.  But, since no theologians hold that this is absolutely true of every word of the Magisterium, what does that mean?  It means that it's substantially inerrant, even though it doesn't preclude some lesser degree of error from creeping in here or there per accidens.