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Author Topic: Images of contradiction  (Read 1448 times)

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Offline AntiFellayism

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Images of contradiction
« on: June 13, 2012, 04:45:38 PM »
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  • Non Habemus Papam


    Offline AntiFellayism

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    Images of contradiction
    « Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 05:06:48 PM »
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  • Non Habemus Papam


    Offline Dino

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    Images of contradiction
    « Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 05:33:53 PM »
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  • So many questions.  I personally do not have the answers.  I do know some things though.  Charity is greater than Faith.  Both Charity and Faith are needed for salvation.  Obedience is gold.  False obedience can be deadly.  We are living through the times of a great spiritual chastisement, one that Sister Lucia said in 1960 was fast approaching.


    Conclusion...  If someone wanted to take my Brown Scapular off me They'd have to kill me first!

    Our Lady Queen of Peace...  Pray for us!

    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 06:07:12 PM »
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  • Charity is not greater than Faith.

    True charity has to have basis in the Faith, or it is "luv luv", a term coined by Bishop Williamson. That is, Charity becomes sentimentalism and emotional fluff if not grounded in principles of the Faith -- in the Truth.

    True Charity toward men must involve wanting their eternal salvation, which can only come through the Catholic Faith, untarnished and uncompromised.

    True Charity towards God must involve being faithful to His commandments, and to the Church He founded -- the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.


    Now the Conciliar Church has lost the attribute of "Apostolic", being a major break with Tradition (Tradition can be often substituted with "The Catholic Faith") and there is no unity, either of belief or of worship.

    Faith comes first, then you have Hope of salvation, then you love with a God-like  or supernatural love (Charity) -- towards both God and your fellow men.

    Obedience comes under the Cardinal Virtue of Justice. But the Four Cardinal Virtues (Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude) come under the Three Theological Virtues (Faith, Hope, Charity). In other words, the four Cardinal Virtues are SUBORDINATE to the Three Theological virtues.

    So when there's an apparent "conflict", it's pretty easy to pick a side. Which virtue is higher?

    This is pure rational St. Thomas Aquinas -- and the key to the answer of "How do I behave during this Crisis?"
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    Offline Dino

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    Images of contradiction
    « Reply #4 on: June 13, 2012, 06:09:51 PM »
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  • 1 Corinthians 13
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
    13 If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
    2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
    3 And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
    4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up;
    5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;
    6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth;
    7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
    8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.
    12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known.
    13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.


    Offline Matthew

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    Images of contradiction
    « Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 06:21:10 PM »
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  • Pardon my interruption of your "sola scriptura" layman's interpretation of Holy Scripture, but here's a bit of Catholic Doctrine to munch on:


    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3004.htm#article7

    Article 7. Whether faith is the first of the virtues?

    Objection 1. It would seem that faith is not the first of the virtues. For a gloss on Luke 12:4, "I say to you My friends," says that fortitude is the foundation of faith. Now the foundation precedes that which is founded thereon. Therefore faith is not the first of the virtues.

    Objection 2. Further, a gloss on Psalm 36, "Be not emulous," says that hope "leads on to faith." Now hope is a virtue, as we shall state further on (17, 1). Therefore faith is not the first of the virtues.

    Objection 3. Further, it was stated above (Article 2) that the intellect of the believer is moved, out of obedience to God, to assent to matters of faith. Now obedience also is a virtue. Therefore faith is not the first virtue.

    Objection 4. Further, not lifeless but living faith is the foundation, as a gloss remarks on 1 Corinthians 3:11 [Augustine, De Fide et Oper. xvi.]. Now faith is formed by charity, as stated above (Article 3). Therefore it is owing to charity that faith is the foundation: so that charity is the foundation yet more than faith is (for the foundation is the first part of a building) and consequently it seems to precede faith.

    Objection 5. Further, the order of habits is taken from the order of acts. Now, in the act of faith, the act of the will which is perfected by charity, precedes the act of the intellect, which is perfected by faith, as the cause which precedes its effect. Therefore charity precedes faith. Therefore faith is not the first of the virtues.

    On the contrary, The Apostle says (Hebrews 11:1) that "faith is the substance of things to be hoped for." Now the substance of a thing is that which comes first. Therefore faith is first among the virtues.

    I answer that, One thing can precede another in two ways: first, by its very nature; secondly, by accident. Faith, by its very nature, precedes all other virtues. For since the end is the principle in matters of action, as stated above (I-II, 13, 3; I-II, 34, 4, ad 1), the theological virtues, the object of which is the last end, must needs precede all the others. Again, the last end must of necessity be present to the intellect before it is present to the will, since the will has no inclination for anything except in so far as it is apprehended by the intellect. Hence, as the last end is present in the will by hope and charity, and in the intellect, by faith, the first of all the virtues must, of necessity, be faith, because natural knowledge cannot reach God as the object of heavenly bliss, which is the aspect under which hope and charity tend towards Him.

    On the other hand, some virtues can precede faith accidentally. For an accidental cause precedes its effect accidentally. Now that which removes an obstacle is a kind of accidental cause, according to the Philosopher (Phys. viii, 4): and in this sense certain virtues may be said to precede faith accidentally, in so far as they remove obstacles to belief. Thus fortitude removes the inordinate fear that hinders faith; humility removes pride, whereby a man refuses to submit himself to the truth of faith. The same may be said of some other virtues, although there are no real virtues, unless faith be presupposed, as Augustine states (Contra Julian. iv, 3).

    This suffices for the Reply to the First Objection.

    Reply to Objection 2. Hope cannot lead to faith absolutely. For one cannot hope to obtain eternal happiness, unless one believes this possible, since hope does not tend to the impossible, as stated above (I-II, 40, 1). It is, however, possible for one to be led by hope to persevere in faith, or to hold firmly to faith; and it is in this sense that hope is said to lead to faith.

    Reply to Objection 3. Obedience is twofold: for sometimes it denotes the inclination of the will to fulfil God's commandments. On this way it is not a special virtue, but is a general condition of every virtue; since all acts of virtue come under the precepts of the Divine law, as stated above (I-II, 100, 2); and thus it is requisite for faith. On another way, obedience denotes an inclination to fulfil the commandments considered as a duty. On this way it is a special virtue, and a part of justice: for a man does his duty by his superior when he obeys him: and thus obedience follows faith, whereby man knows that God is his superior, Whom he must obey.

    Reply to Objection 4. To be a foundation a thing requires not only to come first, but also to be connected with the other parts of the building: since the building would not be founded on it unless the other parts adhered to it. Now the connecting bond of the spiritual edifice is charity, according to Colossians 3:14: "Above all . . . things have charity which is the bond of perfection." Consequently faith without charity cannot be the foundation: and yet it does not follow that charity precedes faith.

    Reply to Objection 5. Some act of the will is required before faith, but not an act of the will quickened by charity. This latter act presupposes faith, because the will cannot tend to God with perfect love, unless the intellect possesses right faith about Him.
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    Offline catherineofsiena

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    Images of contradiction
    « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 01:07:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew

    Obedience comes under the Cardinal Virtue of Justice. But the Four Cardinal Virtues (Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude) come under the Three Theological Virtues (Faith, Hope, Charity). In other words, the four Cardinal Virtues are SUBORDINATE to the Three Theological virtues.

    So when there's an apparent "conflict", it's pretty easy to pick a side. Which virtue is higher?

    This is pure rational St. Thomas Aquinas -- and the key to the answer of "How do I behave during this Crisis?"


    Nowhere is the inversion of this concept more clear than on the +Tissier thread on Rorate Caeli tonight.  Most of the comments lack basic knowledge of Catholic catechism.  It's all "obedience obedience obedience" and "punish those evil prideful Trads".  Very few mention the Faith.

    Very sad and a sobering picture of why we are in the mess we are today.

    BTW, the person posting trash on that thread as "Catherine of Siena" is NOT me.
    For it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be dispersed. Matthew 26:31