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Author Topic: I Met a New SSPXer  (Read 4342 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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I Met a New SSPXer
« on: May 08, 2023, 05:57:55 AM »
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  • Yesterday before Mass, I was introduced to a newbie at the chapel.  I asked him how he landed here, and he said he’d been going to the Novus Ordo chapel down the road, but had been studying about the TLM. I was hoping he’d volunteer something about concerns regarding Vatican 2, modernism, the post-conciliar reforms, etc., but in our short conversation, his comments were restricted to the Mass.

    In the back of my mind, I was thinking about the dilution of tradition, if this was representative of the depth of what brought and/or sustained people in the SSPX pews now days.

    While conceding this gentleman might simply be at the beginning of his journey into tradition, and could expand the breadth of his understanding in time, it made me wonder how this would actually come about in the branded SSPX: Who would introduce him to the doctrinal crisis in the Church?  Certainly not the priest from the pulpit.  Certainly not the faithful at coffee/donuts after Mass, as in the good old days.  Who was going to introduce him to the old, unedited Michael Davies books, Archbishop Lefebvre’s polemical works, or the history of the SSPX and it’s full raison d’etre? 

    What is mostly talked about is the new school addition, the purchase of land for a future boys school, the purchase of land for a priory, how big we’re getting, what new people are coming, etc.  There's just not much talk these last 10 years about the fight against modernism (without which the Church cannot recover).  What good does getting big do, if the bigger you get, the less you combat the errors of the day, only to repeat the errors/compromises of the indult groups?

    I thought, were I the one to introduce this man to the wider world of the combat for the faith, it would not be appreciated by the others.  Possibly it would even be viewed as troublemaking. 
    15 years ago, I would not have had such concerns, and was perceived as a good representative SSPX parishioner by faithful and clergy.  But not today.  15 years ago, I would not have had such concerns roll through my head, but for better or worse, I’m the same old Sean. I’m not the one who changed.  I do not deny that coming from the Novus to the neoSSPX is still an improvement, but it’s not as big an improvement as it once was.

    The joy I used to feel at seeing a newbie come to Tradition wasn’t the same, because I had to wonder how much Tradition he would be exposed to beyond the Mass.  I welcomed this gentleman with a smile, a handshake, and a few polite words, and went on my way, wondering such things.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #1 on: May 08, 2023, 06:12:01 AM »
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  • Listening to the SSPX themselves, you'd think that there is no Crisis in the Church, that the state we're in is simply the new normal into which they seek to be integrated.


    Offline andy

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #2 on: May 08, 2023, 09:02:41 AM »
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  • While we do not get a high doze of "we live in time of crisis" at the SSPX place I attend, the topic is interlaced into sermons quite frequently.




    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #3 on: May 08, 2023, 09:35:55 AM »
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  • While we do not get a high doze of "we live in time of crisis" at the SSPX place I attend, the topic is interlaced into sermons quite frequently.

    Yes, that’s pretty typical: Referencing a “crisis” in a vague and passing way, interlaced within a sermon about something else.

    But a sermon addressing the doctrinal errors of Vatican 2 or the popes head on, and refuting them, pointing out what Lefebvre said about them, etc. no way.

    That’s against Rome’s/Menzingen’s orders, per the Cor Unum letter of +di Noia: No more making war on Vatican 2 and Roman modernism; spiritual sermons from here on out.  And so it has been ever since.

    When a rare priest attempts to still preach against V2 and Roman modernism, he gets in trouble with his superiors, and is told there are many other things he could preach about (first-hand testimony).

    Any substantial violation of that policy would sound alarm bells in Rome (and consequently Menzingen), and that’s why it won’t be allowed to happen.  More than this, the new seminary formation makes it impossible for priest to even desire to give such sermons.

    The combat for the faith is not the mother’s milk they were reared on (in home or seminary).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #4 on: May 08, 2023, 11:17:52 AM »
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  • Yes, that’s pretty typical: Referencing a “crisis” in a vague and passing way, interlaced within a sermon about something else.

    But a sermon addressing the doctrinal errors of Vatican 2 or the popes head on, and refuting them, pointing out what Lefebvre said about them, etc. no way.

    That’s against Rome’s/Menzingen’s orders, per the Cor Unum letter of +di Noia: No more making war on Vatican 2 and Roman modernism; spiritual sermons from here on out.  And so it has been ever since.

    When a rare priest attempts to still preach against V2 and Roman modernism, he gets in trouble with his superiors, and is told there are many other things he could preach about (first-hand testimony).

    Any substantial violation of that policy would sound alarm bells in Rome (and consequently Menzingen), and that’s why it won’t be allowed to happen.  More than this, the new seminary formation makes it impossible for priest to even desire to give such sermons.

    The combat for the faith is not the mother’s milk they were reared on (in home or seminary).
    From my perspective, I see no difference between this and the indults.


    Offline SolHero

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #5 on: May 08, 2023, 12:47:40 PM »
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  • Yesterday before Mass, I was introduced to a newbie at the chapel.  I asked him how he landed here, and he said he’d been going to the Novus Ordo chapel down the road, but had been studying about the TLM. I was hoping he’d volunteer something about concerns regarding Vatican 2, modernism, the post-conciliar reforms, etc., but in our short conversation, his comments were restricted to the Mass.

    In the back of my mind, I was thinking about the dilution of tradition, if this was representative of the depth of what brought and/or sustained people in the SSPX pews now days.

    While conceding this gentleman might simply be at the beginning of his journey into tradition, and could expand the breadth of his understanding in time, it made me wonder how this would actually come about in the branded SSPX: Who would introduce him to the doctrinal crisis in the Church?  Certainly not the priest from the pulpit.  Certainly not the faithful at coffee/donuts after Mass, as in the good old days.  Who was going to introduce him to the old, unedited Michael Davies books, Archbishop Lefebvre’s polemical works, or the history of the SSPX and it’s full raison d’etre? 

    What is mostly talked about is the new school addition, the purchase of land for a future boys school, the purchase of land for a priory, how big we’re getting, what new people are coming, etc.  There's just not much talk these last 10 years about the fight against modernism (without which the Church cannot recover).  What good does getting big do, if the bigger you get, the less you combat the errors of the day, only to repeat the errors/compromises of the indult groups?

    I thought, were I the one to introduce this man to the wider world of the combat for the faith, it would not be appreciated by the others.  Possibly it would even be viewed as troublemaking. 
    15 years ago, I would not have had such concerns, and was perceived as a good representative SSPX parishioner by faithful and clergy.  But not today.  15 years ago, I would not have had such concerns roll through my head, but for better or worse, I’m the same old Sean. I’m not the one who changed.  I do not deny that coming from the Novus to the neoSSPX is still an improvement, but it’s not as big an improvement as it once was.

    The joy I used to feel at seeing a newbie come to Tradition wasn’t the same, because I had to wonder how much Tradition he would be exposed to beyond the Mass.  I welcomed this gentleman with a smile, a handshake, and a few polite words, and went on my way, wondering such things.
    This sounds like me when I first stepped into an SSPX church. I stuck out like a sore thumb, I was wearing what I thought was nice for church and then I realized it was nice for Novus Ordo but not even close for this SSPX church. I, like this gentleman you speak of, started trying to make friends, to express my sincere desire to learn more about the Mass. One of the men I reached out to said he was not the best at explaining what has happened to the church but he introduced me to another gentleman who is very knowledgeable and not afraid to share his thoughts about it. I guess you can say he "peppered" me with different thoughts, perspectives and a book suggestion. I have since taken my own path, researching things as they come. It was through researching various topics that I ended up in this forum. Initially only as an observer. I think I was reading the forum for a year or longer before I became a member.

    I can see why speaking about the crisis in the church would not be in every sermon, it is a subject that needs to be given its proper context and to be exposed gently and with charity (which should not look like troublemaking), which is not possible from the pulpit on a random Sunday morning. I say random because we you may not always get new people on Sunday.

    Perhaps the church needs another mechanism to find those new to it and offer resources (like a welcome package with books, for example). Sometimes it is easy to notice someone new to it. Once I met this religious brother that was visiting the area, he told me he looked up a Catholic church and found the SSPX which was along the way to his destination. It appeared he had no idea about the crisis in the church. He did not realize it was a Traditional Catholic church and I could tell that he loved it, had no clue what was going on because it was in Latin and did not have a missal but he was in awe. Mass ended and the was still standing in the back of the church as if trying to absorb or make sense of what just happened. I gave him my copy of "An open letter to confused Catholics" and I left him in good hands with another member of the church who is one of the people who spoke to me when I was new.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #6 on: May 08, 2023, 01:19:53 PM »
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  • I can see why speaking about the crisis in the church would not be in every sermon, it is a subject that needs to be given its proper context and to be exposed gently and with charity (which should not look like troublemaking), which is not possible from the pulpit on a random Sunday morning.

    This perspective is proof you are fairly new to the SSPX (i.e., since 2012):

    Firstly, because you try to excuse the SSPX for not speaking about the crisis in **every** sermon.  How about **ANY** sermon? 

    Secondly, because until the orders came down from +di Noia/+Fellay, the SSPX used to preach about it all the time.

    So what you say "is not posssible from the pulpit" was actually common. 

    Never would you have gone months without some topical doctrinal sermon on the crisis, but more than a decade??

    You have only known the branded shell of the neoSSPX, but things were once very different.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SolHero

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #7 on: May 08, 2023, 03:48:50 PM »
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  • This perspective is proof you are fairly new to the SSPX (i.e., since 2012):

    Firstly, because you try to excuse the SSPX for not speaking about the crisis in **every** sermon.  How about **ANY** sermon? 

    Secondly, because until the orders came down from +di Noia/+Fellay, the SSPX used to preach about it all the time.

    So what you say "is not posssible from the pulpit" was actually common. 

    Never would you have gone months without some topical doctrinal sermon on the crisis, but more than a decade??

    You have only known the branded shell of the neoSSPX, but things were once very different.
    Yes, I am fairly new, even more recent than that. I'm not trying to excuse the SSPX.

    Quote
    So what you say "is not posssible from the pulpit" was actually common. 
    I'm not talking about just bringing up the crisis. Of course that can be done directing that to the current parishioners who understand already but what I am referring to is to speak about the crisis in a way that a person coming from the N.O. would understand without feeling attacked, criticized, ridiculed, etc. AND at the same time not forgetting to feed your sheep. I've heard priests scoffed at something from the N.O. and said it was horrible or appalling!. My chances of returning to that church would have diminished if that was my first experience. Even NO members are used to some criticism from protestants but it hurts when it comes from other Catholics. Truth hurts. So how do you do that without scaring them away?

    Don't forget that for many, the NO is all they know (it certainly was for me), they are not old enough to remember the old days, they are not "returning to tradition", because they were never there. Perhaps that is what has changed from the days you remember, because back then people were "closer to it" and I imagine they had relatives that were also at Traditional Catholic churches or chapels and you could see the difference. I am far removed from times of VII and my parents never talked to me about it, my grand parents are long gone so I did not get to learn from any first hand experience.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2023, 05:47:37 PM »
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  • Yes, I am fairly new, even more recent than that. I'm not trying to excuse the SSPX.
    I'm not talking about just bringing up the crisis. Of course that can be done directing that to the current parishioners who understand already but what I am referring to is to speak about the crisis in a way that a person coming from the N.O. would understand without feeling attacked, criticized, ridiculed, etc. AND at the same time not forgetting to feed your sheep. I've heard priests scoffed at something from the N.O. and said it was horrible or appalling!. My chances of returning to that church would have diminished if that was my first experience. Even NO members are used to some criticism from protestants but it hurts when it comes from other Catholics. Truth hurts. So how do you do that without scaring them away?

    Don't forget that for many, the NO is all they know (it certainly was for me), they are not old enough to remember the old days, they are not "returning to tradition", because they were never there. Perhaps that is what has changed from the days you remember, because back then people were "closer to it" and I imagine they had relatives that were also at Traditional Catholic churches or chapels and you could see the difference. I am far removed from times of VII and my parents never talked to me about it, my grand parents are long gone so I did not get to learn from any first hand experience.

    I’m not sure what you’re talking about anymore.

    I was lamenting the deliberate omission of hard-hitting anti-modernist sermons, like we used to get on a regular basis, on direct orders from Rome/Menzingen.

    The SSPX stopped doing that, in order to cozy up to Rome.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #9 on: May 08, 2023, 06:15:29 PM »
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  • Yesterday before Mass, I was introduced to a newbie at the chapel.  I asked him how he landed here, and he said he’d been going to the Novus Ordo chapel down the road, but had been studying about the TLM. I was hoping he’d volunteer something about concerns regarding Vatican 2, modernism, the post-conciliar reforms, etc., but in our short conversation, his comments were restricted to the Mass.

    In the back of my mind, I was thinking about the dilution of tradition, if this was representative of the depth of what brought and/or sustained people in the SSPX pews now days.

    While conceding this gentleman might simply be at the beginning of his journey into tradition, and could expand the breadth of his understanding in time, it made me wonder how this would actually come about in the branded SSPX: Who would introduce him to the doctrinal crisis in the Church?  Certainly not the priest from the pulpit.  Certainly not the faithful at coffee/donuts after Mass, as in the good old days.  Who was going to introduce him to the old, unedited Michael Davies books, Archbishop Lefebvre’s polemical works, or the history of the SSPX and it’s full raison d’etre? 

    What is mostly talked about is the new school addition, the purchase of land for a future boys school, the purchase of land for a priory, how big we’re getting, what new people are coming, etc.  There's just not much talk these last 10 years about the fight against modernism (without which the Church cannot recover).  What good does getting big do, if the bigger you get, the less you combat the errors of the day, only to repeat the errors/compromises of the indult groups?

    I thought, were I the one to introduce this man to the wider world of the combat for the faith, it would not be appreciated by the others.  Possibly it would even be viewed as troublemaking. 
    15 years ago, I would not have had such concerns, and was perceived as a good representative SSPX parishioner by faithful and clergy.  But not today.  15 years ago, I would not have had such concerns roll through my head, but for better or worse, I’m the same old Sean. I’m not the one who changed.  I do not deny that coming from the Novus to the neoSSPX is still an improvement, but it’s not as big an improvement as it once was.

    The joy I used to feel at seeing a newbie come to Tradition wasn’t the same, because I had to wonder how much Tradition he would be exposed to beyond the Mass.  I welcomed this gentleman with a smile, a handshake, and a few polite words, and went on my way, wondering such things.

    Isn't sspx just a wing in the v2 church now?  I thought Jorge made it official and said they are not in schism?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #10 on: May 08, 2023, 07:11:09 PM »
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  • From my perspective, I see no difference between this and the indults.
    There is an enormous difference, still, between the SSPX and the Indult, in terms of the validity of the Mass and Sacraments, and the solidity of the doctrine and spirituality. There is no doubt, however, that the SSPX is intent on running headlong into Indultland, but it is not there yet. Let us hope and pray against all the odds as BW recommends.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #11 on: May 08, 2023, 07:33:35 PM »
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  • There is an enormous difference, still, between the SSPX and the Indult, in terms of the validity of the Mass and Sacraments, and the solidity of the doctrine and spirituality. There is no doubt, however, that the SSPX is intent on running headlong into Indultland, but it is not there yet. Let us hope and pray against all the odds as BW recommends.

    I’m no longer sure they weren’t already approved years ago, in pectore.

    Nothing else can explain the continued passivity of the SSPX on the one hand, and Rome’s granting of jurisdiction and consecrations on the other hand (all the while, Francis dismantles tradition).

    I’m starting to think it’s not a matter of incrementally approving the SSPX, but of incrementally revealing an approval given long ago:

    “Don’t be surprised if one day you wake up, and you are in Rome.” (Fr. Pfluger)

    PS: The quiet sanation of Campos’s marriages, if true, would be a precedent for Rome working in this way.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #12 on: May 08, 2023, 08:39:02 PM »
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  • I’m starting to think it’s not a matter of incrementally approving the SSPX, but of incrementally revealing an approval given long ago:
    Yes, one wonders...

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #13 on: May 08, 2023, 08:42:03 PM »
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  • “Don’t be surprised if one day you wake up, and you are in Rome.” (Fr. Pfluger)
    Where did he say that, Sean?
    What a comment to make. Who but an enemy would make such a statement in the heat of the battle? Wake up in Rome captive, yes.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Met a New SSPXer
    « Reply #14 on: May 08, 2023, 08:46:57 PM »
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  • Where did he say that, Sean?
    What a comment to make. Who but an enemy would make such a statement in the heat of the battle? Wake up in Rome captive, yes.
    I’ve looked for the citation for years.  It didn’t make my book, because I couldn’t come up with it.  I’d thought it was the 2015 Christmas conferences to the brothers in Flavigny (which are transcribed on The Recusant website), but I could t find it there.

    If anyone else can come up with it, I’d be much obliged.  In the meantime, feel free to put an asterisk next to it, but I’m not in the habit of making up citations (though I can’t rule out a defective memory).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."