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Author Topic: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest  (Read 5246 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2023, 05:07:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 14, 2023, 05:01:28 PM
    I think you're the only one struggling here...

    Its impious and destabilizing, not because it is sacrilegous (as you erroneously contend), but because the antiquarian justification for reintroducing it (i.e., It was the practice of the early Church) was predicated upon the specious pretext of destroying 1500 years of christological, eucharistic, and liturgical development, and redevelop it along modernist lines.

    The fact that "communion in the hand" is a break with Tradition is secondary.

    Why, Sean, did Tradition decide that "communion in the hand" was bad in the first place? The reason is that Tradition considered "communion in the hand" to be a "sacrilege." Its sacrilegious nature is the primary concern. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #31 on: September 14, 2023, 05:24:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on September 14, 2023, 05:07:41 PM
    The fact that "communion in the hand" is a break with Tradition is secondary.

    Why, Sean, did Tradition decide that "communion in the hand" was bad in the first place? The reason is that Tradition considered "communion in the hand" to be a "sacrilege." Its sacrilegious nature is the primary concern.

    Au contraire.

    You are operating in the deluded belief that communion in the hand is intrinsically evil, where the praxis of the early Church shows the falsity of that error.

    It is only the break with tradition which makes the practice odious.

    If you persist in believing otherwise, you attribute sacrilege to the saints and fathers who practiced the very thing you think to be intrinsically evil.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #32 on: September 14, 2023, 05:25:27 PM »
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    • :facepalm:  Sean, you are a theological train-wreck.  You might as well be indult...all of your arguments logically lead there.

    "Communion-in-the-hand" was not "endorsed" or "promulgated" in the early centuries.  It was allowed due to persecution times; outside of this, it was considered a liturgical abuse/sacrilege.


    STATEMENTS FROM POPES, SAINTS & CHURCH COUNCILS
    St. Sixtus I (circa 115)
    "The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord."

    Pope St. Eutychian (275-283)
    Forbade the faithful from taking the Sacred Host in their hand.

    St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379)
    "The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution." St. Basil the Great considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault.

    The Council of Saragossa (380)
    Excommunicated anyone who dared continue receiving Holy Communion by hand. This was confirmed by the Synod of Toledo.

    Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461)
    Energetically defended and required faithful obedience to the practice of administering Holy Communion on the tongue of the faithful.

    The Synod of Rouen (650)
    Condemned Communion in the hand to halt widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against sacrilege.

    The Sixth Ecuмenical Council, at Constantinople (680-681)
    Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening transgressors with excommunication.

    St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)
    "Out of reverence towards this sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this sacrament." (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8)

    The Council of Trent (1545-1565)
    "The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition."

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #33 on: September 14, 2023, 05:29:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 14, 2023, 05:25:27 PM
    :facepalm:  Sean, you are a theological train-wreck.  You might as well be indult...all of your arguments logically lead there.

    "Communion-in-the-hand" was not "endorsed" or "promulgated" in the early centuries.  It was allowed due to persecution times; outside of this, it was considered a liturgical abuse/sacrilege.


    STATEMENTS FROM POPES, SAINTS & CHURCH COUNCILS
    St. Sixtus I (circa 115)
    "The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord."

    Pope St. Eutychian (275-283)
    Forbade the faithful from taking the Sacred Host in their hand.

    St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379)
    "The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution." St. Basil the Great considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault.

    The Council of Saragossa (380)
    Excommunicated anyone who dared continue receiving Holy Communion by hand. This was confirmed by the Synod of Toledo.

    Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461)
    Energetically defended and required faithful obedience to the practice of administering Holy Communion on the tongue of the faithful.

    The Synod of Rouen (650)
    Condemned Communion in the hand to halt widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against sacrilege.

    The Sixth Ecuмenical Council, at Constantinople (680-681)
    Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening transgressors with excommunication.

    St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)
    "Out of reverence towards this sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this sacrament." (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8)

    The Council of Trent (1545-1565)
    "The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an Apostolic Tradition."

    Au contraire:


    The Mass of the Roman Rite: Its Origins and Development, 1951:

    “A clear picture of the procedure at Communion in the fourth century is given us in the Mystagogic Catecheses of Jerusalem:
    .
    ‘When you approach, do not go stretching out your open hands or having your fingers spread out, but make the left hand into a throne for the right which shall receive the King, and then cup your open hand and take the Body of Christ, reciting the Amen. Then sanctify with all care your eyes by touching the Sacred Body, and receive It. But be careful that no particles fall, for what you lose would be to you as if you had lost some of your members. Tell me, if anybody had given you gold dust, would you not hold fast to it with all care, and watch lest some of it fall and be lost to you? Must you not then be even more careful with that which is more precious than gold and diamonds, so that no particles are lost? Then, after you have partaken of the Body of Christ, approach the chalice with the Blood without stretching out your hands, but bowed, in a position of worship and reverence, and repeat the Amen and sanctify yourself by receiving the Blood of Christ. Should your lips still be moist, then touch them with your hands and sanctify your eyes and your forehead and the other senses. Then tarry in prayer and thank God who has made you worthy of such mysteries.’ (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catech. mysl., V, 21 f; Quasten, Mon., 108-110).
    .
    “Most of the details found in the picture presented above are corroborated for the period of Christian antiquity not only by the texts cited before and by pictures and drawings, but also in many other sources: the giving of the Eucharist into the hand of the communicant, the placing of both hands together open and in cruciform, the blessing of the senses with the sacramental species, the admonition to take great care in handling them, and the immediate reception of the eucharistic bread before proceeding to partake of the chalice.” (Jungmann, The Mass of the Roman Rite: Its Origins and Development, Vol II, 1951, pp. 379-380)
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #34 on: September 14, 2023, 05:34:39 PM »
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    • 1.  St Cyril isn't a pope.
    2.  Persecutions allow different rules than normal.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #35 on: September 14, 2023, 05:42:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 14, 2023, 05:34:39 PM
    1.  St Cyril isn't a pope.
    2.  Persecutions allow different rules than normal.

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia (see the article on "Genuflexion"):

    "That, in the early Church, the faithful stood when receiving into their hands the consecrated particle can hardly be questioned. Cardinal Bona indeed (Rer. Liturg., H, xvii, 8) hesitates somewhat as to Roman usage; but declares that in regard to the East there can be no doubt whatever. He inclines moreover to the view that at the outset the same practice obtained in the West (cf. Bingham, XVI, v). St. Dionysius of Alexandria, writing to one of the popes of his time, speaks emphatically of "one who has stood by the table and has extended his hand to receive the Holy Food" (Eusebius, Church History VII.9). The custom of placing the Sacred Particle in the mouth, rather than in the hand of the communicant, dates in Rome from the sixth, and in Gaul from the ninth century (Van der Stappen, IV, 227; cf. St. Gregory, Dial., I, III, c. iii)."


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #36 on: September 14, 2023, 05:47:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 14, 2023, 05:34:39 PM
    2.  Persecutions allow different rules than normal.

    (Regarding the bogus list youposted a few posts prior:)

    As someone else wrote:

    "Basil does not say only in times of persecution. Basil uses the word only 296 times and never in reference to communion. Basil says it is permitted take communion in the hand without a priest in times of persecution. Basil then clarifies the situation that he is talking about by talking about people taking the Eucharist home. This means he is referring to self communication at home with no priest around. Now this makes sense since apparently on the tongue is faster there is really no reason for communion on the hand in times of persecution but taking communion home during persecution makes total sense. Basil then goes on to say EVEN when in a church (presumable not in persecution since in times of persecution they wouldn’t have gone to church if a church even was standing during persecution) the person takes communion takes complete power over it and lifts it to his lips.

    Please point me to the source docuмent that says Saragossa and Rouen excommunicated people. It is not in the Post Nicene Fathers. My opinion is that it is completely made up because the same source you got for saying this also says 6th ecuмenical Council of Constantinople 680-681 excommunicated people also. This council is in the Fathers and it said no such thing. Not only did the council not talk about how to receive communion but it makes no mention of the Eucharist at all. On top of that in the council of Constantinople Trullo 692 the only valid method of receiving communion that they mention was in the HAND. A crushing blow to the people who keep repeating this stuff. Taylor Marshal repeated all of these mistakes in a recent episode and I wrote him challenging him on his honor to retract his mistakes but I received no reply from him."
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Texana

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #37 on: September 14, 2023, 06:09:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on September 14, 2023, 03:40:11 PM
    Say Tex, are you the gent who had his question answered by Fr. Jenkins Tuesday night? :)
    Dear Simeon,
    No, it wasn't me.  Fr. Jenkins did seem to leave out addressing the Huonder oils for the consecration of the ordinand's hands though.  Does that mean that new SSPX priests in Europe are priests with no hands?  Are we to kiss hands that were not annointed with Holy Oil consecrated and blessed by a SSPX bishop who is the line of Apostolic Succession?
    Wait a minute, Simeon!  What if the question about a novus order person "blessing" the oils was NOT about Huonder?  Is there another one somewhere within SSPX???
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #38 on: September 14, 2023, 06:22:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 14, 2023, 05:42:08 PM
    From the Catholic Encyclopedia (see the article on "Genuflexion"):

    "That, in the early Church, the faithful stood when receiving into their hands the consecrated particle can hardly be questioned. Cardinal Bona indeed (Rer. Liturg., H, xvii, 8) hesitates somewhat as to Roman usage; but declares that in regard to the East there can be no doubt whatever. He inclines moreover to the view that at the outset the same practice obtained in the West (cf. Bingham, XVI, v). St. Dionysius of Alexandria, writing to one of the popes of his time, speaks emphatically of "one who has stood by the table and has extended his hand to receive the Holy Food" (Eusebius, Church History VII.9). The custom of placing the Sacred Particle in the mouth, rather than in the hand of the communicant, dates in Rome from the sixth, and in Gaul from the ninth century (Van der Stappen, IV, 227; cf. St. Gregory, Dial., I, III, c. iii)."


    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06423a.htm

    As the Church developed its sacramental theology, communion in the hand was banned because it was seen to be sacrilegious within the new theological context. Why do find that so hard to understand? 

    Here is St. Thomas Aquinas, again, on the subject:

    Whether dispensing of this sacrament belongs to a priest alone?
    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q82.A3


    Quote
    I answer that, The dispensing of Christ’s body belongs to the priest for three reasons. First, because, as was said above (A. 1), he consecrates as in the person of Christ. But as Christ consecrated His body at the supper, so also He gave it to others to be partaken of by them. Accordingly, as the consecration of Christ’s body belongs to the priest, so likewise does the dispensing belong to him. Second, because the priest is the appointed intermediary between God and the people; hence as it belongs to him to offer the people’s gifts to God, so it belongs to him to deliver consecrated gifts to the people. Third, because out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest’s hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency.

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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #39 on: September 14, 2023, 06:58:47 PM »
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    • This is what Dr Adrian Fortesque says in The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy:

    "There are many witnesses that the Host was put in the hand of the Communicant. Women had to cover their hand with a white cloth. It seems that as early as the time of St. Gregory I (590-604) it was sometimes put into the mouth, as now. For some time both ways must have gone on side by side. St Bede (+735) mentions reception in the hand, the VIth Roman Ordo (IXth cent.) describes our way. Card. Bona thinks that the use of very thin altar bread had to do with the beginning of our manner of administration."

    There are six footnotes to that entry, citing authorities such as Tertullian, St Augustine, St Cyprian.

    It is not "archeologism" to state historical facts. Those who have accused Sean of this have misunderstood the term. The question is, was the Church guilty of promoting widespread sacrilege for the first several centuries of Her existence? Or, rather, is it possible that what was not sacrilege then, has become sacrilege now because of the development in the Church's understanding and practice?

    Any guilty of archeologism on this matter are to be found in the Conciliar Church, are they not?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #40 on: September 14, 2023, 07:30:23 PM »
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    • Quote
    The custom of placing the Sacred Particle in the mouth, rather than in the hand of the communicant, dates in Rome from the sixth, and in Gaul from the ninth century (Van der Stappen, IV, 227; cf. St. Gregory, Dial., I, III, c. iii)."
    :facepalm:  A "custom" does not mean it's allowed or encouraged.  We all have the "custom" of sinning, but God doesn't condone such.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #41 on: September 14, 2023, 07:33:08 PM »
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    • Quote
    This is what Dr Adrian Fortesque says in The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy:

    "There are many witnesses that the Host was put in the hand of the Communicant. Women had to cover their hand with a white cloth. It seems that as early as the time of St. Gregory I (590-604) it was sometimes put into the mouth, as now. For some time both ways must have gone on side by side. St Bede (+735) mentions reception in the hand, the VIth Roman Ordo (IXth cent.) describes our way. Card. Bona thinks that the use of very thin altar bread had to do with the beginning of our manner of administration."
    :jester:  Who cares?  Just because something happened in the past, doesn't mean it was ok.


    Quote
    There are six footnotes to that entry, citing authorities such as Tertullian, St Augustine, St Cyprian.

    It is not "archeologism" to state historical facts. Those who have accused Sean of this have misunderstood the term. The question is, was the Church guilty of promoting widespread sacrilege for the first several centuries of Her existence? Or, rather, is it possible that what was not sacrilege then, has become sacrilege now because of the development in the Church's understanding and practice?
    What is so hard to understand about these quotes?  3 popes (at least) in the first 4 centuries forbade the practice!

    St. Sixtus I (circa 115)
    "The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord."

    Pope St. Eutychian (275-283)
    Forbade the faithful from taking the Sacred Host in their hand.

    St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379)
    "The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution." St. Basil the Great considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault.

    The Council of Saragossa (380)
    Excommunicated anyone who dared continue receiving Holy Communion by hand. This was confirmed by the Synod of Toledo.

    Pope St. Leo the Great (440-461)
    Energetically defended and required faithful obedience to the practice of administering Holy Communion on the tongue of the faithful.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #42 on: September 14, 2023, 07:43:24 PM »
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    • Now Sean is energetically defending Communion in the Hand?

    We should compile a book, As Am I? docuмenting Sean's transition into Modernism.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #43 on: September 14, 2023, 07:59:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on September 14, 2023, 04:13:50 PM
    You are idiotic.

    Deacons routinely distribute communion.  Are they committing sacrilege?  Acording to St. Thomas?  Would he be horrified to see such a thing?

    The entire Church practiced communion in the hand until at least he 5th century.  Was the Church universally sacrilegeous?

    Sean Johnson tactic #1.

    Deacons routinely distribute communion?  In the Novus Ordo, yes.  Have you been attending Motu Masses or something?

    Are they committing sacrilege?  Yes ... as per St. Thomas Aqinas.

    Would St. Thomas be horrified to see such a thing?  Yes, yes he would, especially to see laymen handling the Blessed Sacrament.  If you're not, then you've lost your sensus Catholicus.

    The entire Church practiced communion in the hand until at least the 5th century?  Hogwash.  This allegation is based on a single routinely misinterpreted quotation from St. Cyril.

    Heck, even Catholic Answers realizes this.  We now have the Novus Ordites to the right of Sean Johnson?
    https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/how-ancient-is-communion-in-the-hand

    Michael Davies also goes into debunking the quote.
    https://sspx.org/sites/sspx/files/communion-in-the-hand-and-other-similiar-frauds-michael-davies.pdf

    Quo vadis?, Sean?  As I said, we need to compile the book As I am?
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #44 on: September 14, 2023, 08:08:39 PM »
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    • Hey guys!  Could ya'll please mosey back to the original question?  Are the SSPX creating hybrid priests?  If the answer is YES, how do we help those poor priests?
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