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Author Topic: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest  (Read 4069 times)

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Offline Texana

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I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
« on: September 14, 2023, 08:09:20 AM »
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  • If a man is ordained by a SSPX consecrated bishop using the traditional Roman Catholic ordination rite, but the bishop uses "Holy oil" that was "consecrated" by a novus ordo-ordained-and-consecrated "bishop", will the ordinand's hands be consecrated?

    He will be a priest but...will he be a new kind of hybrid priest?  What would be the remedy?

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #1 on: September 14, 2023, 09:21:34 AM »
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  • If a man is ordained by a SSPX consecrated bishop using the traditional Roman Catholic ordination rite, but the bishop uses "Holy oil" that was "consecrated" by a novus ordo-ordained-and-consecrated "bishop", will the ordinand's hands be consecrated?

    He will be a priest but...will he be a new kind of hybrid priest?  What would be the remedy?
    Good question!  May God spare us...  :pray:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #2 on: September 14, 2023, 11:31:51 AM »
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  • If a man is ordained by a SSPX consecrated bishop using the traditional Roman Catholic ordination rite, but the bishop uses "Holy oil" that was "consecrated" by a novus ordo-ordained-and-consecrated "bishop", will the ordinand's hands be consecrated?

    He will be a priest but...will he be a new kind of hybrid priest?  What would be the remedy?

    Here is what St. Thomas says (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5):

    Quote
    I answer that, As stated above (A. 4), to cause the form and to give the matter its proximate preparation for the form belong to the same agent. Therefore, the bishop in conferring holy orders does two things, for he prepares the candidates for the reception of holy orders and delivers to them the power of order.

    He prepares them both by instructing them in their respective offices and by doing something to them, so that they may be adapted to receive the power. This preparation consists of three things: namely, blessing, imposition of hands, and anointing. By the blessing they are enlisted in the divine service; thus the blessing is given to all. By the imposition of hands the fullness of grace is given, whereby they are qualified for exalted duties; thus only deacons and priests receive the imposition of hands, because they are competent to dispense the sacraments, although the latter as principal dispensers, the former as ministers. But by the anointing they are consecrated for the purpose of handling the sacrament; thus the anointing is done to the priests alone who touch the body of Christ with their own hands, even as a chalice is anointed because it holds the blood, and the paten because it holds the body.

    The conferring of power is effected by giving them something pertaining to their proper act. And since the principal act of a priest is to consecrate the body and blood of Christ, the priestly character is imprinted at the very giving of the chalice under the prescribed form of words.

    So, if the "anointings" described above are not done with true Chrism (which requires the blessing of a traditionally-consecrated bishop), there would presumably be a sacrilege occurring whenever the priest or the vessels touch Our Lord. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #3 on: September 14, 2023, 11:54:57 AM »
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  • Here is what St. Thomas says (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5):

    So, if the "anointings" described above are not done with true Chrism (which requires the blessing of a traditionally-consecrated bishop), there would presumably be a sacrilege occurring whenever the priest or the vessels touch Our Lord.

    Interesting thought.  Now, the entire man becomes the Persona Christi, and receives the character of Christ, so in that sense it may not be a sacrilege, but I'm on the fence here.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #4 on: September 14, 2023, 01:15:14 PM »
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  • Interesting thought.  Now, the entire man becomes the Persona Christi, and receives the character of Christ, so in that sense it may not be a sacrilege, but I'm on the fence here.
    Dear Ladislaus and Angelus,
    Would conditional ordination with true Holy oil be the only remedy for the positive doubt? Would Extreme Unction be valid by any priest if the "Holy oil" administered was not truly consecrated?  Would Confirmation by any SSPX bishop be valid if the "Holy oil" used was just olive oil with balsam and no consecration?

    That Trojan Horse surely seems to have more than one purpose!  Regarding recent and upcoming SSPX ordinations; how would we, the faithful, the ordinands, and the priests know where the Holy Oils originated?


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #5 on: September 14, 2023, 01:21:01 PM »
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  • Dear Ladislaus and Angelus,
    Would conditional ordination with true Holy oil be the only remedy for the positive doubt? Would Extreme Unction be valid by any priest if the "Holy oil" administered was not truly consecrated?  Would Confirmation by any SSPX bishop be valid if the "Holy oil" used was just olive oil with balsam and no consecration?

    That Trojan Horse surely seems to have more than one purpose!  Regarding recent and upcoming SSPX ordinations; how would we, the faithful, the ordinands, and the priests know where the Holy Oils originated?
    .

    Such a man would be validly ordained, so there would be no doubt about his sacraments. The matter and form of holy orders do not include holy oils.

    As far as whether the oils would have to be supplied again, I doubt it, but that obligation (assuming it existed) would lie only on the priest himself and the bishop who ordained him.

    On the other hand, I'm pretty sure confirmation would be invalid if it was done using invalidly-consecrated oils.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #6 on: September 14, 2023, 01:23:41 PM »
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  • More from St. Thomas on why Priests hands and vessels must be consecrated with the Oil of Chrism made by a traditional bishop (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q82.A1):

    Quote
    Reply Obj. 4: The bishop receives power to act on Christ’s behalf upon His mystical body, that is, upon the Church; but the priest receives no such power in his consecration, although he may have it by commission from the bishop. Consequently all such things as do not belong to the mystical body are not reserved to the bishop, such as the consecration of this sacrament. But it belongs to the bishop to deliver, not only to the people, but likewise to priests, such things as serve them in the fulfillment of their respective duties. And because the blessing of the chrism, and of the holy oil, and of the oil of the sick, and other consecrated things, such as altars, churches, vestments, and sacred vessels, makes such things fit for use in performing the sacraments which belong to the priestly duty, therefore such consecrations are reserved to the bishop as the head of the whole ecclesiastical order.
    Thus, we can conclude that if a Priest's hands and vessels are not consecrated with Chrism, those things ARE NOT "fit for use in performing the sacraments which belong to the priestly duty..."


    Here is what St. Thomas says about Sacrilege (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.II-II.Q99.A3):

    Quote
    I answer that, As stated above (A. 1), the sin of sacrilege consists in the irreverent treatment of a sacred thing. Now reverence is due to a sacred thing by reason of its holiness: and consequently the species of sacrilege must needs be distinguished according to the different aspects of sanctity in the sacred things which are treated irreverently: for the greater the holiness ascribed to the sacred thing that is sinned against, the more grievous the sacrilege.

    Now holiness is ascribed, not only to sacred persons, namely, those who are consecrated to the divine worship, but also to sacred places and to certain other sacred things. And the holiness of a place is directed to the holiness of man, who worships God in a holy place. For it is written (2 Macc 5:19): God did not choose the people for the place’s sake, but the place for the people’s sake. Hence sacrilege committed against a sacred person is a graver sin than that which is committed against a sacred place. Yet in either species there are various degrees of sacrilege, according to differences of sacred persons and places.

    In like manner the third species of sacrilege, which is committed against other sacred things, has various degrees, according to the differences of sacred things. Among these the highest place belongs to the sacraments whereby man is sanctified: chief of which is the sacrament of the Eucharist, for it contains Christ Himself. Wherefore the sacrilege that is committed against this sacrament is the gravest of all. The second place, after the sacraments, belongs to the vessels consecrated for the administration of the sacraments; also sacred images, and the relics of the saints, wherein the very persons of the saints, so to speak, are reverenced and honored. After these come things connected with the apparel of the Church and its ministers; and those things, whether movable or immovable, that are deputed to the upkeep of the ministers. And whoever sins against any one of the aforesaid incurs the crime of sacrilege.

    So, a person whose hands are not consecrated with the Oil of Chrism commits "sacrilege" when handling the Eucharist. Similarly, with the sacred vessels. The reason is that unconsecrated hands or vessels are NOT "fit for use in performing the sacraments which belong to the priestly duty."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #7 on: September 14, 2023, 01:56:47 PM »
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  • Dear Ladislaus and Angelus,
    Would conditional ordination with true Holy oil be the only remedy for the positive doubt? Would Extreme Unction be valid by any priest if the "Holy oil" administered was not truly consecrated?  Would Confirmation by any SSPX bishop be valid if the "Holy oil" used was just olive oil with balsam and no consecration?

    That Trojan Horse surely seems to have more than one purpose!  Regarding recent and upcoming SSPX ordinations; how would we, the faithful, the ordinands, and the priests know where the Holy Oils originated?

    Yes, conditional Ordination of the priest in the traditional Rite of Priestly Ordination by a traditional Rite bishop, using properly blessed Oil of Chrism, would seem to be the appropriate remedy to remove the any possibility of Sacrilege, as well as removing any positive doubt about validity of the Eucharist confected by such priests.

    So, there are two separate issues here:

    1) Sacrilege committed when a priest uses hands or vessels not consecrated with true Chrism. I don't think there is any doubt about this. If the Oil of Chrism used on the priest during his ordination was not real Chrism, then when that priest confects the Eucharist and handles it with unconsecrated hands, a sacrilege is committed. We should avoid going to such priests (outside of emergency) because we don't want to promote the sacrilege.

    2) The lacking of the power to Confect the Eucharist because of the use of fake Chrism. This is a more complicated discussion. St. Thomas definitely believed that "the power" to confect the Eucharist was different from "the grace" of Ordination of the priest. You can see this in his discussion here, which I quoted in a previous post. Following St. Thomas, it would seem that if a priest was consecrated using fake Chrism, he would not even receive "the power" (what St. Thomas calls "the character" of the Sacrament). If that were the case, then there would be positive doubt about the "validity" of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.


    The Sacrament of Confirmation would not be valid if the bishop used plain olive oil and balsam. The Oil of Chrism requires consecration with a special traditional blessing prayer said by a traditionally-consecrated bishop. Here is what St. Thomas says,

    Whether chrism is a fitting matter for this sacrament?
    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q72.A2

    Whether it is essential to this sacrament that the chrism which is its matter be previously consecrated by a bishop?
    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q72.A3

    The answer to both questions, according to St. Thomas, is YES!




    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #8 on: September 14, 2023, 02:04:12 PM »
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  • The practice of the early Church was, for centuries, to place Holy Communion into unconsecrated hands.  So unless we want to conclude that the Church endorsed sacrilege, we must conclude that, despite all the good reasons to have moved away from that practice, placing the host in unconsecrated hands is not, in se, sacrilege.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #9 on: September 14, 2023, 02:13:18 PM »
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  • Here is what St. Thomas says (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5):

    So, if the "anointings" described above are not done with true Chrism (which requires the blessing of a traditionally-consecrated bishop), there would presumably be a sacrilege occurring whenever the priest or the vessels touch Our Lord.
    This seems to be a common misunderstanding..

    In the traditional rite, a priest's hands are anointed with the oil of catechumensThe Novus Ordo rite uses Chrism.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #10 on: September 14, 2023, 02:31:57 PM »
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  • The practice of the early Church was, for centuries, to place Holy Communion into unconsecrated hands.  So unless we want to conclude that the Church endorsed sacrilege, we must conclude that, despite all the good reasons to have moved away from that practice, placing the host in unconsecrated hands is not, in se, sacrilege.

    Your idea is an expression of what Pius XII called archeologism or "antiquarianism" (Mediator Dei, 64). Antiquarianism was the strategy of the reformers after Vatican II (following the strategy of the Protestants in the 1500s). 

    Traditio in Latin means "to hand over," to pass the baton. The baton (the Faith and the Sacraments) develops over the centuries based on reason and the Magisterium, without ever contradicting what was definitively taught before. Think of a stick (baton) that was originally rough but over centuries of being passed down becomes more smooth. We can't and should not want to go back and add onto the baton all the rough spots that were originally there. They were smoothed away for good reason.

    The early Church had not had the chance to think clearly about the implications of unconsecrated hands touching the Eucharist. That came later. On this matter, the Church teaching and customs "developed" for good reasons. It would be unreasonable and sacrilegious to accept that early-Church practice understanding the Eucharist as we do now.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #11 on: September 14, 2023, 02:50:30 PM »
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  • This seems to be a common misunderstanding..

    In the traditional rite, a priest's hands are anointed with the oil of catechumensThe Novus Ordo rite uses Chrism.

    You are correct. I was incorrect about the traditional Rite of Priestly Ordination using the Oil of Chrism.

    But the Oil of Catechumens still requires the traditional exorcisms/blessings of a traditional bishop to be "fit for use" in a consecration as St. Thomas says here.

    Quote
    But by the anointing they are consecrated for the purpose of handling the sacrament; thus the anointing is done to the priests alone who touch the body of Christ with their own hands, even as a chalice is anointed because it holds the blood, and the paten because it holds the body.

    So, to say it correctly, the consecration of the priest's hands and vessels requires annointing with the Oil of Catechumens, which must be blessed by a traditional bishop using traditional prayers.



    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #12 on: September 14, 2023, 02:59:23 PM »
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  • Your idea is an expression of what Pius XII called archeologism or "antiquarianism" (Mediator Dei, 64). Antiquarianism was the strategy of the reformers after Vatican II (following the strategy of the Protestants in the 1500s).

    Traditio in Latin means "to hand over," to pass the baton. The baton (the Faith and the Sacraments) develops over the centuries based on reason and the Magisterium, without ever contradicting what was definitively taught before. Think of a stick (baton) that was originally rough but over centuries of being passed down becomes more smooth. We can't and should not want to go back and add onto the baton all the rough spots that were originally there. They were smoothed away for good reason.

    The early Church had not had the chance to think clearly about the implications of unconsecrated hands touching the Eucharist. That came later. On this matter, the Church teaching and customs "developed" for good reasons. It would be unreasonable and sacrilegious to accept that early-Church practice understanding the Eucharist as we do now.

    Umm, no.

    Archaeologism pertains to the modernist liturgical practice of reintroducing ancient liturgical practices as a means of backtracking on organic liturgical development, and “redeveloping” the liturgy in a new, modernist direction.

    That is not at issue here.

    What is at issue is your erroneous contention that communion in the hand is, in se, sacrilegious (and that contention is an indictment against the Church).

    But the Church did not move away from Communion in the hand because it realized it was sacrilegious (as though it had been asleep at the wheel…yet another indictment bound up with your historical error), but because the development in the Christological doctrines intrinsically bound up with the liturgy resulted in an elevated piety and devotional praxis which continued until 1969.

    It is the implicit impiety of that revolution, which sought to denude worship, for which trads reject the reintroduction of a long-obsolete praxis, and not because the Church negligently permitted and mandated sacrilege for hundreds of years.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #13 on: September 14, 2023, 03:02:42 PM »
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  • Your idea is an expression of what Pius XII called archeologism or "antiquarianism" (Mediator Dei, 64). Antiquarianism was the strategy of the reformers after Vatican II (following the strategy of the Protestants in the 1500s).

    Traditio in Latin means "to hand over," to pass the baton. The baton (the Faith and the Sacraments) develops over the centuries based on reason and the Magisterium, without ever contradicting what was definitively taught before. Think of a stick (baton) that was originally rough but over centuries of being passed down becomes more smooth. We can't and should not want to go back and add onto the baton all the rough spots that were originally there. They were smoothed away for good reason.

    The early Church had not had the chance to think clearly about the implications of unconsecrated hands touching the Eucharist. That came later. On this matter, the Church teaching and customs "developed" for good reasons. It would be unreasonable and sacrilegious to accept that early-Church practice understanding the Eucharist as we do now.

    Where in Mediator Dei does Pius XII say that communion in the hand is a form of "antiquarianism?" Your link to the encyclical isn't working.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: I Huonder if They Are Creating a Hybrid Priest
    « Reply #14 on: September 14, 2023, 03:30:27 PM »
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  • Here is what St. Thomas says (https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5):

    So, if the "anointings" described above are not done with true Chrism (which requires the blessing of a traditionally-consecrated bishop), there would presumably be a sacrilege occurring whenever the priest or the vessels touch Our Lord.
    The anointing of hands can't be an absolute requirement for handling the Eucharist given that it is not present in other rites. It is of course required by precept but it isn't necessarily needed for one to licitly handle the sacred vessels. 
    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.