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Author Topic: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils  (Read 13726 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2023, 09:32:57 PM »
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  • So is my understanding correct that +Williamson is accepting the validity of Mgr Huonder's orders while some Resistance priests and lay folks do not?
    Sorry, Trento, I didn't mean to imply that. It is as Sean says. But he did take a bit of prompting from the interviewer!

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #106 on: April 18, 2023, 09:53:51 PM »
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  • The Non Possumus Blog obtained this suppressed pic of Bishop (?) Huonder consecrating (?) the holy oils, assisted by Fathers Jeindl and Schreiber (SSPX).

    http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com/2023/04/non-possumus-tuvo-acceso-una-de-las.html?m=1
    This is just so grave!
    Will there be no resistance from anyone within the SSPX? Has anyone heard anything from an SSPX pulpit even, condemning this?
    When is it not okay to keep silence when the Faith and sacraments are under attack?
    This is the beginning of introducing doubts into the sacraments of the SSPX on a grand scale (if not the refusal to conditionally re-ordain NO priests).
    Where are the courageous bishops and priests in the SSPX - for many of them know the gravity of what is happening here - who will stand up like Bishop de Castro Mayer at the episcopal consecrations in 1988?: St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that there is no obligation to make a public profession of Faith in every circuмstance, but when the Faith is in danger it is urgent to profess it, even at the risk of one's life... It is sorrowful to see the lamentable blindness of so many confreres in the episcopacy and the priesthood, who do not see or who do not wish to see the present crisis, nor the necessity to resist the modernism momentarily ruling, in order to be faithful to the mission which God has confided to us.
    To everyone in the SSPX, priest and laymen, reading this, I beg of you, for the love of God, to take action and stand up against this attack on Tradition.



    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #107 on: April 18, 2023, 10:09:20 PM »
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  • This is just so grave!
    Will there be no resistance from anyone within the SSPX? Has anyone heard anything from an SSPX pulpit even, condemning this?
    When is it not okay to keep silence when the Faith and sacraments are under attack?
    This is the beginning of introducing doubts into the sacraments of the SSPX on a grand scale (if not the refusal to conditionally re-ordain NO priests).
    Where are the courageous bishops and priests in the SSPX - for many of them know the gravity of what is happening here - who will stand up like Bishop de Castro Mayer at the episcopal consecrations in 1988?: St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that there is no obligation to make a public profession of Faith in every circuмstance, but when the Faith is in danger it is urgent to profess it, even at the risk of one's life... It is sorrowful to see the lamentable blindness of so many confreres in the episcopacy and the priesthood, who do not see or who do not wish to see the present crisis, nor the necessity to resist the modernism momentarily ruling, in order to be faithful to the mission which God has confided to us.
    To everyone in the SSPX, priest and laymen, reading this, I beg of you, for the love of God, to take action and stand up against this attack on Tradition.


    Actually why is this considered alarming now even though priests and bishops who have not been conditionally ordained were working with the SSPX long back even when the Archbishop was still alive and didn't make it a general policy to conditionally ordain all NO clergy? Did the SSPX innovate on this or is the Resistance getting closer to the position of "The Nine"?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #108 on: April 18, 2023, 10:59:05 PM »
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  • Actually why is this considered alarming now even though priests and bishops who have not been conditionally ordained were working with the SSPX long back even when the Archbishop was still alive and didn't make it a general policy to conditionally ordain all NO clergy? Did the SSPX innovate on this or is the Resistance getting closer to the position of "The Nine"?
    Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX have never considered the New Rite of Priestly Ordination to be invalid. It is the intention of the ordaining bishop, and the validity of his consecration, that may be called into question. If the ordination was performed by a true bishop whose intention was not in doubt, then conditionally re-ordaining would not only be not necessary but forbidden by the Church.

    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #109 on: April 18, 2023, 11:40:36 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX have never considered the New Rite of Priestly Ordination to be invalid. It is the intention of the ordaining bishop, and the validity of his consecration, that may be called into question. If the ordination was performed by a true bishop whose intention was not in doubt, then conditionally re-ordaining would not only be not necessary but forbidden by the Church.

    This doesn't answer the question. Unless the ordaining cleric explicitly states he doesn't intend to ordain or consecrate and follows the text of the official rites faithfully, the sacrament is considered valid.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #110 on: April 19, 2023, 12:40:16 AM »
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  • The presumption of valid sacraments only applies to orthodox rites, not the modernist Frankenstein V2 creations.  

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #111 on: April 19, 2023, 01:02:12 AM »
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  • This doesn't answer the question. Unless the ordaining cleric explicitly states he doesn't intend to ordain or consecrate and follows the text of the official rites faithfully, the sacrament is considered valid.
    You have provided one of the answers: "follows the text of the official rites faithfully" - improvisation is well known in the New Church. The ordaining minister may not be a validly consecrated bishop. The matter and form may not be adhered to. Translation into the vernacular may be an issue. The new revolutionary theology may pervert the intention, which may not be so well guaranteed by the new un-Catholic rite. 

    See my postings here on Bishop Williamson and Archbishop Lefebvre explaining this issue to understand the traditional SSPX position:


    Validity of NO orders - page 1 - Crisis in the Church - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)

    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #112 on: April 19, 2023, 04:25:32 AM »
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  • The presumption of valid sacraments only applies to orthodox rites, not the modernist Frankenstein V2 creations. 

    Fr. Pierre-Marie, OP of the Avrille Dominicans (now aligned with the Resistance) wrote the following article :

    https://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations

    I do not know if he has ever retracted this article.


    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #113 on: April 19, 2023, 05:40:13 AM »
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  • Fr. Pierre-Marie, OP of the Avrille Dominicans (now aligned with the Resistance) wrote the following article :

    https://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations

    I do not know if he has ever retracted this article.
    Ah, here we go again.  Note the date: Fall of 2005.  Just after Ratzinger, a new-rite bishop, was elected.  

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #114 on: April 19, 2023, 05:42:44 AM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX have never considered the New Rite of Priestly Ordination to be invalid. It is the intention of the ordaining bishop, and the validity of his consecration, that may be called into question. If the ordination was performed by a true bishop whose intention was not in doubt, then conditionally re-ordaining would not only be not necessary but forbidden by the Church.
    Why would the NREC be at least doubtful, but the NRPO be certainly valid?  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #115 on: April 19, 2023, 05:46:03 AM »
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  • Fr. Pierre-Marie, OP of the Avrille Dominicans (now aligned with the Resistance) wrote the following article :

    https://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations

    I do not know if he has ever retracted this article.

    It is interesting that in his conclusion, Fr. Pierre-Marie rejects the argument of Coomaraswamy, but unless I missed it, does not deal with +de Mallerais’ acceptance of same (who said Coomaraswamy’s book convinced him the rite was doubtful).

    Has +de Mallerais ever retracted that position?

    And what about Fr. Calderon’s conclusions (which seem less certain than Fr. Pierre-Marie’s)?

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #116 on: April 19, 2023, 06:30:36 AM »
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  • Ah, here we go again.  Note the date: Fall of 2005.  Just after Ratzinger, a new-rite bishop, was elected. 

    In other words, as the article of Fr. Pierre Marie (and those of Fr's. Celier and Calderon) transpires within the context of the SSPX ralliement to Rome, were the motivations and conclusions suspect?  Stated differently, would the same conclusions have been reached, had the studies taken place while +Lefebvre were still alive (i.e., pre-ralliement)?

    Let's stick with the first question:

    Playing devil's advocate, one could say that it is not merely the timing of Fr. Pierre-Marie's article which is suspicious, but one could also wonder, given the behind the scenes drama then taking place between the SSPX and Avrille for several years already (read The Steffeshausen Memorandum for more details), whether Avrille was strongarmed by Menzingen into defending the validity of the NREC (e.g., Was Avrille -already at odds with +Fellay over the ralliement since 2001- worried about losing odinations, financial support, and its very survival if it were to distance itself from Menzingen on this point?  This theory could be bolstered by recalling in 2014 how difficult was their break with Menzingen, how discreet their support for the Resistance initially was, and how Avrille did not join the Resistance until Menzingen broke ties: It was not Avrille who declared its allegiance with the Resistance, but Menzingen who told Avrille to get lost.

    The obvious problem with this theory is that it rests upon completely rash foundations: To attribute dishonorable motives, even while more honorable and probable explanations exist (such as the following) is unsatisfactory.

    For example, another reading of the events of the time, and motivations for the article, is this one:

    Upon the elecction of BXVI, Rore Sanctifica (sedevacantists in Europe) wrote an article denying the validity of BXVI.  The SSPX and allies sought to refute that argument, sensing in it the damage it could cause to simple souls (or simply because they were not persuaded of the arguments, or both).  According to this explaation, that the article of Fr. Pierre Marie, et al, defending the NREC transpired within the immediate context of BXVI's election is the cause, yes, but that it transpired within the greater context of the ralliement is incidental.

    The overarching problem here, is that the SSPX lost the trust and moral high ground it once had when it reoriented itself toward a practical accord (just as +de Galarreta said would happen beforehand at Albano in late 2011, in his Reflections on a Roman Proposal).

    My own personal position is that the arguments of Fr. Pierre Marie, et al in favor of the validdity of the NREC are sincere, and that, while the election of BXVI certainly sparked the debate anew, the ralliement was probably incidental to their conclusions, howsoever much it may have garnered favor in Rome. 

    Whether these arguments in favor of the validity of the NREC are correct or not is another matter, and one in which I am not competent to address.  What I am competent to note are the past statements of +de Mallerais expressing doubt, which seems not to be dealt with, the doubts raised by Fr. Calderon's study, and the color these two elements give to yielding an easy assent to the certain validity of the NREC.  That the changes transspire amidst the post-conciliar revolution colors the rite still further. 

    Ultimately, I don't know whether these causes for doubt are well-founded or not.  All I know is that I would not use them exxcept in case of necessity (i.e., when doubtful rites would be better than no rites at all).

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #117 on: April 19, 2023, 06:49:19 AM »
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  • Upon the election of BXVI, Rore Sanctifica (sedevacantists in Europe) wrote an article denying the validity of BXVI.  The SSPX and allies sought to refute that argument, sensing in it the damage it could cause to simple souls (or simply because they were not persuaded of the arguments, or both).  According to this explanation, that the article of Fr. Pierre Marie, et al, defending the NREC transpired within the immediate context of BXVI's election is the cause, yes, but that it transpired within the greater context of the ralliement is incidental.

    Granted, your explanation may be possible, but does he ever refer to such an article or say that he is attempting to refute it with his study?  That's typically what happens in such a situation. It's been many years since I read his study (and Fr Cekada's refutation of it), so I don't recall.  Also, can you provide a link to the Rore Sanctifca article?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #118 on: April 19, 2023, 07:26:33 AM »
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  • Granted, your explanation may be possible, but does he ever refer to such an article or say that he is attempting to refute it with his study?  That's typically what happens in such a situation. It's been many years since I read his study (and Fr Cekada's refutation of it), so I don't recall.  Also, can you provide a link to the Rore Sanctifca article?

    No time right now, but here's a lead regarding Rore Sanctifica, which might provide some search info (but it will all be French):

    file:///C:/Users/Sean/Downloads/Rore%20Sanctifica.org%20-%20Contact.pdf
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #119 on: April 19, 2023, 07:32:39 AM »
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  • In other words, as the article of Fr. Pierre Marie (and those of Fr's. Celier and Calderon) transpires within the context of the SSPX ralliement to Rome, were the motivations and conclusions suspect?  Stated differently, would the same conclusions have been reached, had the studies taken place while +Lefebvre were still alive (i.e., pre-ralliement)?

    Let's stick with the first question:

    Playing devil's advocate, one could say that it is not merely the timing of Fr. Pierre-Marie's article which is suspicious, but one could also wonder, given the behind the scenes drama then taking place between the SSPX and Avrille for several years already (read The Steffeshausen Memorandum for more details), whether Avrille was strongarmed by Menzingen into defending the validity of the NREC (e.g., Was Avrille -already at odds with +Fellay over the ralliement since 2001- worried about losing odinations, financial support, and its very survival if it were to distance itself from Menzingen on this point?  This theory could be bolstered by recalling in 2014 how difficult was their break with Menzingen, how discreet their support for the Resistance initially was, and how Avrille did not join the Resistance until Menzingen broke ties: It was not Avrille who declared its allegiance with the Resistance, but Menzingen who told Avrille to get lost.

    The obvious problem with this theory is that it rests upon completely rash foundations: To attribute dishonorable motives, even while more honorable and probable explanations exist (such as the following) is unsatisfactory.

    For example, another reading of the events of the time, and motivations for the article, is this one:

    Upon the elecction of BXVI, Rore Sanctifica (sedevacantists in Europe) wrote an article denying the validity of BXVI.  The SSPX and allies sought to refute that argument, sensing in it the damage it could cause to simple souls (or simply because they were not persuaded of the arguments, or both).  According to this explaation, that the article of Fr. Pierre Marie, et al, defending the NREC transpired within the immediate context of BXVI's election is the cause, yes, but that it transpired within the greater context of the ralliement is incidental.

    The overarching problem here, is that the SSPX lost the trust and moral high ground it once had when it reoriented itself toward a practical accord (just as +de Galarreta said would happen beforehand at Albano in late 2011, in his Reflections on a Roman Proposal).

    My own personal position is that the arguments of Fr. Pierre Marie, et al in favor of the validdity of the NREC are sincere, and that, while the election of BXVI certainly sparked the debate anew, the ralliement was probably incidental to their conclusions, howsoever much it may have garnered favor in Rome. 

    Whether these arguments in favor of the validity of the NREC are correct or not is another matter, and one in which I am not competent to address.  What I am competent to note are the past statements of +de Mallerais expressing doubt, which seems not to be dealt with, the doubts raised by Fr. Calderon's study, and the color these two elements give to yielding an easy assent to the certain validity of the NREC.  That the changes transspire amidst the post-conciliar revolution colors the rite still further. 
    A charitable and impartial analysis. Good work.

    However, I must disagree that a doubtful form of consecration could ever be used. (The fact the NREC is certainly invalid aside.)

    Have you any authorities which support your view of employing doubtful forms of sacraments?

    Also, what could possibly prevent someone from uttering at least the one sentence form of the old rite?