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Author Topic: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils  (Read 13713 times)

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Online 2Vermont

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Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2023, 07:55:03 PM »
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    • So... atleast Ratzinger and Bergoglio were/are not certainly Bishops of Rome...aka popes...since they were consecrated in the New Rite.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #46 on: April 06, 2023, 09:12:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: trento on April 05, 2023, 09:57:21 PM
    Yes, the SSPX still does conditional confirmations.
    Not for me they didn't - I had to seek out Bishop Williamson and get conditionally confirmed during one of his visits to the states. SSPX had no response to my inquiries.
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    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #47 on: April 06, 2023, 10:02:24 PM »
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #48 on: April 06, 2023, 10:18:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 06, 2023, 09:37:12 AM
    My first question is this:

    Has the SSPX ever performed a conditional ordination specifically on the basis of having positive doubt about the validity of the new form (rather than intention)?

    They have certainly never conditionally consecrated a bishop (on that basis, or any other).

    If these are both facts, then they cannot be accused of changing or contradicting previous policy or praxis, with regard to form.
    I also see it this way. They are merely repeating (what I consider) the errors of Abp. Lefebvre regarding the validity of the new sacraments.

    This issue was raised by "the nine" in the now distant 80s, as somebody mentioned before, and Abp. Lefebvre never gave a satisfatory answer. He simply carried on accepting novus ordo priests.

    The change seems to be that they were more inclined to conditionally ordain, probably on the basis of probable doubtful intention. Now, apparently, they presume that the intention is not questionable, unless some exterior element suggests it.

    This is a change in praxis.

    Confirmation will probably be the next step in this process.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #49 on: April 06, 2023, 10:47:11 PM »
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    • At what point do we simply bid farewell to SSPX priests for anything?  Most are still validly ordained, but if extreme unction, confirmations, and possibly useless exorcisms at baptisms are on the way in, or their validity cannot be determined, do those of us with no options, and that’s in the thousands, stay home home alone?  
    IOW, when is it time to rely on the Rosary and Brown scapular as forewarned by Our Lady?  One can still do lay baptisms and weddings, so long as there are two witnesses, because the couple actually give the sacrament to each other.  
    I heard of about a dozen baptisms done at home during covid, and of one wedding, since regularized and legally registered under civil law.  
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #50 on: April 06, 2023, 11:28:20 PM »
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    • If the SSPX was listing before, it has now just run aground.

    I know there are good priests and pious faithful in the SSPX orbit but when you have debacles the size of Post Falls and Huonder, free standing alters, and Protestant resembling churches, and you kick out +Williamson, you really have to 'wonder' what team they're playing for.  Now you can't even die in peace.

    Do the oils Huonder worked on cover just Europe? 
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #51 on: April 06, 2023, 11:46:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on April 06, 2023, 11:28:20 PM
    If the SSPX was listing before, it has now just run aground.

    I know there are good priests and pious faithful in the SSPX orbit but when you have debacles the size of Post Falls and Huonder, free standing alters, and Protestant resembling churches, and you kick out +Williamson, you really have to 'wonder' what team they're playing for.  Now you can't even die in peace.

    Do the oils Huonder worked on cover just Europe?
    If you can not get a straight answer if a priest was conditionally ordained or not, you will surely never know where the Holy(?) Oils come from.

    They could very well come straight from the cheapest olive oil bottle from the nearest supermarket. Apparently, the SSPX hierarchy couldn't care less.
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    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #52 on: April 06, 2023, 11:48:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on April 06, 2023, 10:18:36 PM
    I also see it this way. They are merely repeating (what I consider) the errors of Abp. Lefebvre regarding the validity of the new sacraments.

    This issue was raised by "the nine" in the now distant 80s, as somebody mentioned before, and Abp. Lefebvre never gave a satisfatory answer. He simply carried on accepting novus ordo priests.

    The change seems to be that they were more inclined to conditionally ordain, probably on the basis of probable doubtful intention. Now, apparently, they presume that the intention is not questionable, unless some exterior element suggests it.

    This is a change in praxis.

    Confirmation will probably be the next step in this process.

    I don't see any change in praxis.

    Baptisms: NO baptisms are presumed to be valid unless there is actual proof otherwise. Usually those baptized in the NO receives the complementing ceremonies. This is different from a conditional baptism.

    Confirmation: Conditional confirmations are still given, usually based on doubts on the type of oil used in the NO.

    Ordinations: As mentioned previously, this has been the continued practice even when +Lefebvre was still around. Conditional ordination only if there is serious doubt on the part of the NO priest requesting it, unless something is publicly and obviously invalid (such as the Pfeifferite line).
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #53 on: April 06, 2023, 11:53:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: trento on April 06, 2023, 11:48:12 PM
    I don't see any change in praxis.

    Baptisms: NO baptisms are presumed to be valid unless there is actual proof otherwise. Usually those baptized in the NO receives the complementing ceremonies. This is different from a conditional baptism.

    Confirmation: Conditional confirmations are still given, usually based on doubts on the type of oil used in the NO.

    Ordinations: As mentioned previously, this has been the continued practice even when +Lefebvre was still around. Conditional ordination only if there is serious doubt on the part of the NO priest requesting it, unless something is publicly and obviously invalid (such as the Pfeifferite line).
    Sure, but, as I heard, since Benedict XVI became "Pope", they concluded that the novus ordo orders were almost always surely valid and conditional ordinations became history.

    There is definitely a change there. From what I have read in this forum, conditional ordinations were much more common before 2005. Nowadays they are almost nonexistent.

    Something has changed.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #54 on: April 07, 2023, 12:35:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on April 06, 2023, 11:53:49 PM
    From what I have read in this forum, conditional ordinations were much more common before 2005. Nowadays they are almost nonexistent.

    Something has changed.

    “Reconciliation carries within itself its own internal dynamism [self-censorship].”

    -Fr. Cottier after his conquest of Campos
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #55 on: April 07, 2023, 12:55:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: trento on April 06, 2023, 11:48:12 PM
    Conditional ordination only if there is serious doubt on the part of the NO priest requesting it, unless something is publicly and obviously invalid…

    Note Trento’s inclusion of the word “serious,” above.

    Contrast that with Fr. Calderon’s conclusion that:

    “…the positive and objective defects that this rite suffers, which prevent one from being certain of its validity, it seems to us that - until there is a Roman sentence, for which they would have to change many things - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests consecrated by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional re-consecration of these bishops. Such uncertainties cannot be suffered at the very root of the sacraments.”

    He says there are positive defects and doubts, which evidently, the Society would simply have us live with (despite the Church’s teaching that we take a tutiorist position in the matter of sacramental validity).

    +de Mallerais also believes the NREC contains positive doubt (which means all their ordinations are per se doubtful).

    Does ignoring “such uncertainties…suffered at the very root of the sacraments” evince the respect for souls the priestly state requires?

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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Francisco

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #56 on: April 07, 2023, 03:01:33 AM »
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    • Another Palmar de Troya like setup maybe required to break the utter stranglehold the SSPX has on Tradition.
    It's only interest is self sustenance.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #57 on: April 07, 2023, 08:02:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 07, 2023, 12:55:11 AM
    Note Trento’s inclusion of the word “serious,” above.

    Right.  "Serious" doubt has no theological meaning whatsoever.  Term is positive doubt, which means that it rests on something concrete, vs. a negative doubt ("what if Father forgot to say the words of consecration?").  Basically, any doubt where you can actively point to something concrete suffices.

    Whether you agree that it invalidates or not, the removal of "ut" is by definition a positive doubt.  You can say, "Look, they removed the ut and so the Ordination Rite is different".
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    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #58 on: April 07, 2023, 12:13:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Francisco on April 07, 2023, 03:01:33 AM
    Another Palmar de Troya like setup maybe required to break the utter stranglehold the SSPX has on Tradition.
    It's only interest is self sustenance.

    Err..what? Palmar de Troya? Seriously? :laugh2:
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    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #59 on: April 08, 2023, 04:04:18 AM »
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