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Author Topic: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils  (Read 16349 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2023, 08:03:37 PM »
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  • Oh dear I didn't consider confirmation. I was "confirmed" in the novus ordo so I don't believe my confirmation is valid and was hoping to get a conditional confirmation with the SSPX in the future, this is definitely going to be a big problem.

    I received conditional Confirmation from Bishop Williamson in 1989, and it was automatically granted for anyone requesting it, no questions asked.  I'd suspect that now they'd give you the third degree to interrogate whether you might be some closet sedevacantist or something.

    Based on the letter Bishop Tissier wrote, perhaps you contact him and pay him a visit, and it sounds like he may be able to accommodate you in secret ... though I'm not 100% sure he's still in the US.  Last time I heard he was in Chicago, but that may have changed.  Or else you could find some other Traditional bishop of the SV variety, who would certainly accommodate you.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #16 on: April 05, 2023, 09:08:56 PM »
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  • I received conditional Confirmation from Bishop Williamson in 1989, and it was automatically granted for anyone requesting it, no questions asked.  I'd suspect that now they'd give you the third degree to interrogate whether you might be some closet sedevacantist or something.

    Based on the letter Bishop Tissier wrote, perhaps you contact him and pay him a visit, and it sounds like he may be able to accommodate you in secret ... though I'm not 100% sure he's still in the US.  Last time I heard he was in Chicago, but that may have changed.  Or else you could find some other Traditional bishop of the SV variety, who would certainly accommodate you.
    I'm not in the US. There is only 1 traditional mass (sspx) option near me. Thank God the priests there are both old and ordained in the old rite. Other than that there is no one (from what I'm aware of).
     I'll just have to wait and see what God will do with me.


    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #17 on: April 05, 2023, 09:56:10 PM »
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  • Yes, he was "consecrated" in the new rite.  In fact, he was also "ordained" in the new rite, in 1971.  So Huonder may not even be a priest, much less a bishop ... for those who have concerns about the new rites of orders.

    It's getting worse and worse with neo-SSPX.  Before going to an SSPX chapel, one now has to investigate whether any NO priest had been through there in recent days/weeks.

    If and I say if, Huonder was conditionally ordained and consecrated by the SSPX, it will still be in secret because I think when it comes to conditional ordinations and consecrations, the SSPX never publicly announces it.

    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #18 on: April 05, 2023, 09:57:21 PM »
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  • Does the Neo-SSPX do conditional confirmations anymore? I don't think they have for a very long time

    Yes, the SSPX still does conditional confirmations.

    Offline Jr1991

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    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #20 on: April 05, 2023, 10:10:54 PM »
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  • Combine that letter (which pertains to intention) with this one (which pertains to form in the new rite of episcopal consecration) of +de Mallerais in 1998:

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2013/11/28/sspx-bishops-on-bishops-and-bishops/




    "Thank you for sending me a copy of Dr. Rama Coomarawamy’s pamphlet “Le Drame Anglican.”

    After reading it quickly, I concluded there was a doubt about the validity of episcopal consecration conferred according to the rite of Paul VI.
    The [phrase] “spiritum principalem” in the form introduced by Paul VI is not sufficiently clear in itself and the accessory rites do not specify its meaning in a Catholic sense.
    As regards Mgr Lazo, it would be difficult for us to explain these things to him; the only solution is not to ask him to confirm or ordain.
    Yours very truly in Our Lord Jesus Christ,
    +Bernard Tissier de Mallerais
    PS: Another thought: Mgr Lazo has already confirmed “quite a few” [people] with us. Obviously, this is valid because “the Church supplies” (canon 209), because a simple priest can confirm with jurisdiction. And it is difficult to see how to make our doubt known to Mgr Lazo. So silence and discretion about this, please!

    The part about Mgr Lazo indicates that the SSPX has not always insisted on conditional ordination or conditional consecration. There's also the case of Fr. Philip Stark who wasn't conditionally ordained when he came over from the Novus Ordo, as recalled by Fr. Cekada:


    Quote
    And what is the atmosphere at this point? Is it tense?

    Oh very. No back-slapping. So I passed out the copies of the resolutions. So the first resolution was about the doubtfully ordained priest. So we wanted to talk about Fr. Philip Stark, S.J. who was a Jesuit, interestingly enough an erstwhile secretary to Thomas Merton, who had gone to work for Fr. Bolduc. We found out, through a letter from a layman, that Stark had been ordained in the new rite by Cardinal Sheehan in Baltimore. We had done a study some years before on the New Rite of Ordination, and Archbishop Lefebvre was aware of our views and that as far as we were concerned, he was doubtfully ordained. So the Archbishop tried to schmooze us and be diplomatic. “Well, it’s a very delicate question…it would be better if he got re-ordained…it would preserve the peace,” and so on. I pressed him, though and I asked if he was going to make it a policy to re-ordain, and he flatly said “No.” So that was that. So we moved on.

    Source: https://www.truerestoration.org/an-interview-with-fr-anthony-cekada-regarding-archbishop-lefebvre-and-the-1983-split-with-the-sspx/


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #21 on: April 05, 2023, 11:32:27 PM »
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  • Oh dear I didn't consider confirmation. I was "confirmed" in the novus ordo so I don't believe my confirmation is valid and was hoping to get a conditional confirmation with the SSPX in the future, this is definitely going to be a big problem.
    It won't be possible, unfortunately.

    Even if a real bishop confirms you, you can never know who consecrated the Holy Oils.

    If you ask about it, chances are that you won't get an answer and you likely will receive ill treatment just because you asked.

    My advice (even if unasked) is that you look for a Sedevacantist bishop. You can check his validity before asking for your conditional confirmation.

    On the bright side, you can get to heaven without confirmation. It is obviously important to get a valid confirmation, but it is not essential for salvation.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #22 on: April 05, 2023, 11:35:07 PM »
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  • If and I say if, Huonder was conditionally ordained and consecrated by the SSPX, it will still be in secret because I think when it comes to conditional ordinations and consecrations, the SSPX never publicly announces it.
    And there we have another important question:

    If ordinations and consecrations are public business, why hide it?

    If you do a good thing of public interest, why keep it discreet? Why do we have to investigate, ask, and sometimes not get an answer about a conditional ordination?


    Offline trento

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #23 on: April 05, 2023, 11:51:34 PM »
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  • And there we have another important question:

    If ordinations and consecrations are public business, why hide it?

    If you do a good thing of public interest, why keep it discreet? Why do we have to investigate, ask, and sometimes not get an answer about a conditional ordination?

    There could be subject to reasons that we may not be privy to. One that I heard of regarding a Novus Ordo priest who received conditional ordination in the SSPX in secret was to avoid issues with the priest's superiors in the Novus Ordo.

    Offline HeavyHanded

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #24 on: April 06, 2023, 04:23:04 AM »
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  • An English translation of +de Mallerais’s letter can be found here:

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2013/11/28/sspx-bishops-on-bishops-and-bishops/

    Or, if you were referring to the principle significatio ex adiunctis, it is referenced in the index of Michael Davies’ Order of Melchizedek.
    Thanks for this but my question was directed at OP. Sorry I should have used quotes. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #25 on: April 06, 2023, 06:37:50 AM »
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  • If you do a good thing of public interest, why keep it discreet? Why do we have to investigate, ask, and sometimes not get an answer about a conditional ordination?

    Politics.  They don't want to give Rome the impression that they have any doubt about their Bogus Ordo "Sacraments".  That would certainly scuttle any hopes of a practical agreement.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #26 on: April 06, 2023, 06:57:39 AM »
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  • There could be subject to reasons that we may not be privy to. One that I heard of regarding a Novus Ordo priest who received conditional ordination in the SSPX in secret was to avoid issues with the priest's superiors in the Novus Ordo.
    Wait, so this priest who got conditional ordination from the SSPX... remained in the NO?  And if not, why would he care about issues with his "superiors in the NO"?

    This makes no sense.  There have been a number of NO priests who have come to sedevacantist bishops and seminaries to become true priests.  And with no looking back.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #27 on: April 06, 2023, 07:13:25 AM »
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  • The part about Mgr Lazo indicates that the SSPX has not always insisted on conditional ordination or conditional consecration. There's also the case of Fr. Philip Stark who wasn't conditionally ordained when he came over from the Novus Ordo, as recalled by Fr. Cekada:
    Yes.  As I said upthread (or maybe it was in another thread), many of the issues people speak of regarding the SSPX was already brought to ABL's attention by "The Nine" in 1983.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #28 on: April 06, 2023, 07:19:06 AM »
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  • Politics.  They don't want to give Rome the impression that they have any doubt about their Bogus Ordo "Sacraments".  That would certainly scuttle any hopes of a practical agreement.

    …and they telegraph to Rome, by the use of Huonder in the Chrism Mass, tgat they harbor no doubts regarding the form of the NREC or new Ordinal.

    Consequently, and conditional ordinations which may still take place (?) would only be done on the basis of doubtful intention, and not the form.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #29 on: April 06, 2023, 07:20:14 AM »
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  • Anyone have any pics/videos of the event?

    I noticed the Zaitzkofen YouTube channel had no livestream of it, despite having livestreams of other services...