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Author Topic: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils  (Read 13715 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2023, 07:24:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 06, 2023, 06:57:39 AM
    Wait, so this priest who got conditional ordination from the SSPX... remained in the NO?  And if not, why would he care about issues with his "superiors in the NO"?

    This makes no sense.  There have been a number of NO priests who have come to sedevacantist bishops and seminaries to become true priests.  And with no looking back.

    Once again: If getting a deal is a priority, then not upsetting those you wish to join impacts your praxis.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #31 on: April 06, 2023, 07:25:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: frankielogue on April 06, 2023, 07:20:14 AM
    Anyone have any pics/videos of the event?

    I noticed the Zaitzkofen YouTube channel had no livestream of it, despite having livestreams of other services...

    Interesting.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #32 on: April 06, 2023, 09:01:45 AM »
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    • The SSPX could always conditionally consecrate Huonder in the traditional rite, and keep it secret, preserving such things as a video of it, and notarized affidavits signed by witnesses, so that then Huonder could continue a traditional line of apostolic succession.  That might not even trigger latae sententiae excommunication, in that in the eyes of Newchurch, he's already a bishop, and thus cannot receive a consecration that he already possesses.  Then, when all of this mess is over, his traditional orders could be unveiled.

    Better not say that too loudly, as Newchurch might suspect that the SSPX would do such a thing.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #33 on: April 06, 2023, 09:37:12 AM »
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    • My first question is this:

    Has the SSPX ever performed a conditional ordination specifically on the basis of having positive doubt about the validity of the new form (rather than intention)?

    They have certainly never conditionally consecrated a bishop (on that basis, or any other).

    If these are both facts, then they cannot be accused of changing or contradicting previous policy or praxis, with regard to form.

    Whether they should or not is a separate question.

    My second question is:

    Did +de Mallerais ever subsequently modify his (1998) position of positive doubt (eg., after the SSPX published its defense of the validity of the NREC)?

    My final question is: Is the SSPX denial of the existence of positive doubt in the form of the NREC contradicted by the same studies which purport to defend it (eg., Fr. Calderon says it’s only “probably valid.”  But is not a merely “probably valid” rite a doubtful rite?  Are we permitted to participate in “probably valid”/doubtful rites, when Fr. Peter Scott instructs us tgat when it comes to sacramental validity, tge Church says we must take a turiorist position?)?

    Which is to say, is participating in “probably valid” rites consistent with taking a tutiorist position?
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    Offline Comrade

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #34 on: April 06, 2023, 09:44:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on April 06, 2023, 09:01:45 AM
    The SSPX could always conditionally consecrate Huonder in the traditional rite, and keep it secret, preserving such things as a video of it, and notarized affidavits signed by witnesses, so that then Huonder could continue a traditional line of apostolic succession.  That might not even trigger latae sententiae excommunication, in that in the eyes of Newchurch, he's already a bishop, and thus cannot receive a consecration that he already possesses.  Then, when all of this mess is over, his traditional orders could be unveiled.

    Better not say that too loudly, as Newchurch might suspect that the SSPX would do such a thing.

    This type of speculation does not help resolve this issue. For such a serious matter, it would be morally wrong for the SSPX to give the impression that the Huonder is legit and push his "ministry" upon the faithful, all in the name of human respect. Real men cannot make competent decisions based on wishful thinking, especially when it comes to the Sacraments.
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    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #35 on: April 06, 2023, 09:50:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on April 06, 2023, 09:01:45 AM
    The SSPX could always conditionally consecrate Huonder in the traditional rite, and keep it secret, preserving such things as a video of it, and notarized affidavits signed by witnesses, so that then Huonder could continue a traditional line of apostolic succession.  That might not even trigger latae sententiae excommunication, in that in the eyes of Newchurch, he's already a bishop, and thus cannot receive a consecration that he already possesses.  Then, when all of this mess is over, his traditional orders could be unveiled.

    Better not say that too loudly, as Newchurch might suspect that the SSPX would do such a thing.
    I'm never a fan of 'secret' ordinations / consecrations. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #36 on: April 06, 2023, 10:23:17 AM »
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    • Just reading in my missal that the Holy Oils consecrated at Holy Thursday are also used in the consecrations of bishops.  Interesting.  Fake bishops consecrating fake oil for more fake bishops.  Not sure if it is the matter, however.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #37 on: April 06, 2023, 02:18:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: frankielogue on April 06, 2023, 09:50:19 AM
    I'm never a fan of 'secret' ordinations / consecrations.
    .

    I strongly, strongly agree with this. And strongly so.
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    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #38 on: April 06, 2023, 03:21:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on April 06, 2023, 10:23:17 AM
    Just reading in my missal that the Holy Oils consecrated at Holy Thursday are also used in the consecrations of bishops.  Interesting.  Fake bishops consecrating fake oil for more fake bishops.  Not sure if it is the matter, however.
    It only affects Confirmation and Extreme Unction as it pertains to the validity of the sacrament (i.e., matter).

    The matter for consecration to the episcopate is the imposition of hands according to Pope Pius XII.
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    Offline frankielogue

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #39 on: April 06, 2023, 03:22:08 PM »
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    • Confirmed: https://gloria.tv/post/fadN1c73FDoz3DHz8pBzmH62p
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #40 on: April 06, 2023, 07:11:27 PM »
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    • From the Non Possumus Resistance Blog (Brazil):

    https://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com/2023/04/el-obispo-dudoso-huonder-consagrara-los.html

    [DeepL.com translation from Spanish:]


    BISHOP (?) HUONDER WILL CONSECRATE (?) THE OILS FOR THE NEO-FSSPX THIS HOLY THURSDAY

    The Neo-FSSPX officially informs that here: https://fsspx.today/chapel/zaitzkofen/#d-2023-04-06

    Vitus Huonder was ordained priest in 1971 according to the new rites and consecrated bishop, also according to the new rites, in 2007, without being known that the Fraternity has ordained and consecrated him under condition; so it is doubtful his quality of priest and bishop.

    On the other hand, the unanimity of moralists teaches that one must be tutiorist with regard to the validity of the sacraments, that is to say, that in case of doubt, it is obligatory to abide by the most certain sentence in order to avoid invalidity.

    By having holy oils consecrated, then, by a doubtful minister, the Neo-FSSPX will, in turn, render doubtful the confirmations and extreme unctions conferred using those oils.

    "But nothing has changed in the FSSPX."
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #41 on: April 06, 2023, 07:21:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: frankielogue on April 06, 2023, 03:22:08 PM
    Confirmed: https://gloria.tv/post/fadN1c73FDoz3DHz8pBzmH62p
    Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 06, 2023, 07:11:27 PM
    From the Non Possumus Resistance Blog (Brazil):

    https://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com/2023/04/el-obispo-dudoso-huonder-consagrara-los.html

    [DeepL.com translation from Spanish:]


    BISHOP (?) HUONDER WILL CONSECRATE (?) THE OILS FOR THE NEO-FSSPX THIS HOLY THURSDAY

    The Neo-FSSPX officially informs that here: https://fsspx.today/chapel/zaitzkofen/#d-2023-04-06

    Vitus Huonder was ordained priest in 1971 according to the new rites and consecrated bishop, also according to the new rites, in 2007, without being known that the Fraternity has ordained and consecrated him under condition; so it is doubtful his quality of priest and bishop.

    On the other hand, the unanimity of moralists teaches that one must be tutiorist with regard to the validity of the sacraments, that is to say, that in case of doubt, it is obligatory to abide by the most certain sentence in order to avoid invalidity.

    By having holy oils consecrated, then, by a doubtful minister, the Neo-FSSPX will, in turn, render doubtful the confirmations and extreme unctions conferred using those oils.

    "But nothing has changed in the FSSPX."

    Nightmare tier scenario.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #42 on: April 06, 2023, 07:24:21 PM »
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    • Below is a computer translation of Fr. Calderón's 'Conclusion' to his 2014 study on Episcopal Consecration, translation here:
    https://thecatacombs.org/archive/index.php?thread-1673.html

    Original here: https://www.scribd.com/docuмent/270396261/Consagraciones-Episcopales-de-Pablo-VI-P-Calderon?ad_group=xxc1xx&campaign=VigLink&medium=affiliate&source=hp_affiliate&campaign=VigLink&ad_group=xxc1xx&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate#


    "If we consider the matter, form and intention of the new rite of episcopal consecration in the context of the rite and in the circuмstances of its institution, it seems to us that it is most probably valid, because it not only means what it should mean, but that most of its elements are taken from rites received by the Church (32).

    But we also believe that there is no certainty of its validity (the italicized Spanish words are no hay certezade su validez), because it suffers from two major defects, which we could classify as one [canonical] and the other theological.

    - Canonical defect. For this reason: above, the institution of this New Rite cannot be considered legitimate.

    - Theological defect. The Novus Ordo is not the same but only similar to other rites accepted by the Church. Although certainly these rites, on the one hand, are not very precise in their concepts; and on the other hand, the differences introduced by the Novus Ordo follow tendencies of bad doctrine. All this makes theological judgment, always difficult in these matters, even more difficult.

    Now, in a matter of the utmost importance for the life of the Church, as is the validity of the episcopate, it becomes necessary to have absolute certainty. Therefore, to be able to accept this rite with peace of conscience, it would be necessary not to have only the sentence of theologians, but the infallible sentence of the Magisterium.


    As for the practical attitude to sustain in the face of the new episcopal consecrations, it seems to us that the one that had supported the Fraternity until now is justified:

    1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by an ordained priest or bishop the Church is not to be consecrated in the new rite, or even to receive communion in it; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive the acquittal from them; treat them as priests and bishops and not as lay people in disguise; we find it acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own houses. For the shadows that float over the validity of his priesthood are but shadows, and in all those activities our responsibility for the priesthood exercised is not compromised. And the remote risk of a communion or an absolution being invalidated is not so serious.

    2. But the positive and objective defects that this rite suffers, which prevent one from being certain of its validity, it seems to us that - until there is a Roman sentence, for which they would have to change many things - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests consecrated by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional re-consecration of these bishops. Such uncertainties cannot be suffered at the very root of the sacraments (33).

    - Father Alvaro Calderón"

    NB: For what its worth, according to Bishop Williamson (in the November 2022 Kansas Interview I conducted with him), Fr. Alvaro Calderon is the best theologian in the SSPX, and alongside Fr. Pierre Marie, O.P., one of the two best in all of Tradition.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #43 on: April 06, 2023, 07:33:13 PM »
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    • "2. But the positive and objective defects that this rite suffers, which prevent one from being certain of its validity, it seems to us that - until there is a Roman sentence, for which they would have to change many things - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests consecrated by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional re-consecration of these bishops. Such uncertainties cannot be suffered at the very root of the sacraments (33).

    - Father Alvaro Calderón"

    As of today, the SSPX has effectively repudiated this conclusion of Fr. Calderon.



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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Huonder to Consecrate SSPX Holy Oils
    « Reply #44 on: April 06, 2023, 07:48:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on April 06, 2023, 07:21:38 PM
    Nightmare tier scenario.
    .

    It sure is. So even validly-ordained SSPX priests, which is the vast majority of them, will not confer Extreme Unction validly if they use the oils from Mr. Huonder.

    Does anyone know which priests will be issued these invalid oils? All of Europe? More? Are they distributed on a geographical basis? Do you think all the priests that are sent these oils will consent to use them?

    There are a lot of difficult questions here, and none of them are fun to contemplate. :facepalm:
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