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Author Topic: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse  (Read 5425 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2023, 10:59:58 AM »
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  • MAJOR:  Legitimate Popes, protected as they are by the Holy Spirit, cannot destroy the Church in this manner (Archbishop Lefebvre himself affirmed this).
    This is not what Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed.

    A pope can contribute to the destruction of the Church, only as a private person.  Observe how none of these popes invoked infallibility for their errors.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #46 on: May 19, 2023, 11:02:32 AM »
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  • Pffft.  I doubt the man was ever a sedevacantist.  You don't go from SVism to being an R&R attempting to cozy up to Rome.  If anything, you go straight back to the Conciliar Church.
    I highly doubt it as well.  Nothing about it makes any sense.

    But, hey, perhaps Sean or PV can provide evidence of this although they have yet to do so.  


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #47 on: May 19, 2023, 11:04:43 AM »
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  • This is not what Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed.

    A pope can contribute to the destruction of the Church, only as a private person.  Observe how none of these popes invoked infallibility for their errors.
    :facepalm: Here we go again.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #48 on: May 19, 2023, 11:29:42 AM »
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  • And yet he was voted Superior General of the SSPX?
    Correct.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #49 on: May 19, 2023, 11:32:37 AM »
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  • Pffft.  I doubt the man was ever a sedevacantist.  You don't go from SVism to being an R&R attempting to cozy up to Rome.  If anything, you go straight back to the Conciliar Church.

    Yes, the MAJOR premise of SVs and conservative Novus Ordites is the same, and they differ on the MINOR.

    SVs --

    MAJOR:  Legitimate Popes, protected as they are by the Holy Spirit, cannot destroy the Church in this manner (Archbishop Lefebvre himself affirmed this).
    MINOR:  Conciliar "Popes" have destroyed the Church.
    CONCLUSION:  Conciliar "Popes" are not legitimate Popes.

    Conciliar Novus Ordites do in fact accept the MAJOR (as did Archbishop Lefebvre).  They reject the MINOR by explaining away or minimizing the Post-V2 destruction.

    R&R and "liberal" Novus Ordites reject the MAJOR.  Where they differ is that R&R accept the MINOR, while Novus Ordites don't think V2 represents any kind of "destruction" but is great stuff.

    This isn't based on "legalism", as Sean claimed, but on some very profound theological principles.  There's nothing "legalistic" about the MAJOR.  Archbishop Lefebvre himself affirmed it.

    What Archbishop Lefebvre did, however, was to distinguish the MAJOR, and he was correct to do so.

    MAJOR:  Legitimate Popes, protected as they are by the Holy Spirit, who are of sound mind and acting freely, cannot destroy the Church in this manner.
    MINOR:  Conciliar "Popes" have destroyed the Church.
    CONCLUSION:  Maybe SVism, maybe something else, such as blackmail or some other unknown factor (he bandied about the imposter pope or drugged pope theories).

    Archbishop Lefebvre was correct in adding this distinguishing to the MAJOR, and given that we don't have the certainty of faith regarding whether Montini et al. were somehow coerced, blackmailed, or even (with Montini) replaced ... we don't have the certainty of faith regarding the conclusion.  Conclusions are only as strong as their premises, and we can only know this CONCLUSION with the same certainty as we can rule out some other nefarious situation short of the Conciliar Popes being strictly illegitimate.

    As I said, I have no problems with this, because the Archbishop affirmed the MAJOR above:

    Legitimate Popes, protected as they are by the Holy Spirit, who are of sound mind and acting freely, cannot destroy the Church in this manner (as we have seen with V2).

    St. Robert Bellarmine could fathom a destroyer pope atacking the Church, who would need to be resisted.

    Ladislaus can't.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #50 on: May 19, 2023, 11:40:01 AM »
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  • You don't go from SVism to being an R&R attempting to cozy up to Rome.  If anything, you go straight back to the Conciliar Church.

    Happens all the time.  The overly legalistic mind of the sedevacantist compels one or the other, but unfortunately precludes a more nuanced understanding (i.e., R&R).

    That's why entire sedevacantist communities reconcile with Rome, like the formerly sede Dominican community, the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer:  https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Fraternity_of_Saint_Vincent_Ferrer

    Same thing with the Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church: https://www.ncregister.com/news/sedevacantist-sisters-reunite-with-church

    Or a big chunk of the CMRI sisters: https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2012/10/19/the-return-to-rome-five-years-later/ 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #51 on: May 19, 2023, 11:44:23 AM »
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  • :facepalm: Here we go again.

    I have the same feeling, every time Loudestmouth posts.

    You could be talking about apples and pantyhose, and his SVDS will find a way to interject something about R&R into it.

    A rather tedious and tiresome fellow.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #52 on: May 19, 2023, 11:49:05 AM »
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  • Happens all the time.  The overly legalistic mind of the sedevacantist compels one or the other, but unfortunately precludes a more nuanced understanding (i.e., R&R).

    Then what happened to Fr Schmidberger?  He was sede, but still was voted in as Society Superior General as a sede?  Or did he switch from sede to R&R?  And if the latter, I don't understand why his sedevacantism in the early years were even brought up/is relevant.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #53 on: May 19, 2023, 11:53:00 AM »
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  • Then what happened to Fr Schmidberger?  He was sede, but still was voted in as Society Superior General as a sede?  Or did he switch from sede to R&R?  And if the latter, I don't understand why his sedevacantism in the early years were even brought up/is relevant.

    You aren't reading very carefully:

    I already explained above that he was only a sede before entering Econe.

    He's a good example of the mindset described above (and its what drives his ralliement).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #54 on: May 19, 2023, 12:30:32 PM »
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  • You aren't reading very carefully:

    I already explained above that he was only a sede before entering Econe.

    He's a good example of the mindset described above (and its what drives his ralliement).
    OK.  Yes, I misunderstand that. 

    What mindset is that... if he was only a sede before entering Econe?  He clearly changed his views to R&R.  So how is his mindset not the R&R mindset (which is what SSPX is after all)?

    Again, why does it matter if he was sede before entering Econe? Why is it relevant to this current discussion/was it brought up?  He was full-fledged R&R when he was Superior General of the SSPX and cozying up to Rome.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #55 on: May 19, 2023, 12:55:57 PM »
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  • Happens all the time.  The overly legalistic mind of the sedevacantist compels one or the other, but unfortunately precludes a more nuanced understanding (i.e., R&R).

    That's why entire sedevacantist communities reconcile with Rome, like the formerly sede Dominican community, the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer:  https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Fraternity_of_Saint_Vincent_Ferrer

    Same thing with the Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church: https://www.ncregister.com/news/sedevacantist-sisters-reunite-with-church

    Or a big chunk of the CMRI sisters: https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2012/10/19/the-return-to-rome-five-years-later/
    These examples seem to support Lad's point.  They didn't go via R&R/SSPX (like Fr Schmidberger).  They went directly back to the Conciliar Church.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #56 on: May 19, 2023, 01:05:18 PM »
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  • OK.  Yes, I misunderstand that. 

    What mindset is that... if he was only a sede before entering Econe?  He clearly changed his views to R&R.  So how is his mindset not the R&R mindset (which is what SSPX is after all)?

    Again, why does it matter if he was sede before entering Econe? Why is it relevant to this current discussion/was it brought up?  He was full-fledged R&R when he was Superior General of the SSPX and cozying up to Rome.

    Although I was not the one who brought it up (i.e., I only responded to posts alleging it wasn't true), it is relevant in this respect:

    The German mind has a remarkable practical intelligence (i.e., what they think, they do), but unfortunately, it is characterized by black/white, either/or, thesis/antithesis, this or that thinking, which is great in mathematics, but not so much in philosophy and theology.  It tends to lack the harmonization and nuance of the Romance languages (Latin, French, Spanish, Italian), and it i for this reason the Germanic speaking countried (Germany, Netherlands, America, Canada, etc) have proportionately fewer great theologians, and proportionately higher number of heretical philosophers and teologians.

    This also explains the relatively higher number of sedevacantists in the German speaking countries, compared to the Romance language (or other) countries.  You may have heard i said that sedevacantism (like Feeneyism) is an American phenomenon, with obvious notable exceptions, and this dialectic mental paradigm is the explanation for it.

    Quite frankly, the Germanic mind recoils at the R&R position because it lacks the nuance which the Romance language mind is quite comfortable with.  It feels it is not being hinest with self, and goes as it thinks.  

    Well, obviously, Fr. Schmidberger possesses this same German intellect, and it was not surprising, therefore, that if it was naturally drawn to sedevacantism as a young man, it would be difficult for him t oremain in the R&R camp (which cased the "recognize" to exercise a dominance over the "resist," making the ralliement inevitable).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #57 on: May 19, 2023, 01:13:06 PM »
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  • These examples seem to support Lad's point.  They didn't go via R&R/SSPX (like Fr Schmidberger).  They went directly back to the Conciliar Church.

    Yes, they support my initial point perfectly, which was that the same legalism characterizes both the sedevacantist and indultarian mind (which is why they went straight into mitigated conciliar R&R, rather than full R&R).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #58 on: May 19, 2023, 10:37:33 PM »
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  • The German mind has a remarkable practical intelligence (i.e., what they think, they do), but unfortunately, it is characterized by black/white, either/or, thesis/antithesis, this or that thinking, which is great in mathematics...
    I also recall that Fr Schmidberger was in fact a mathematician before he entered the seminary!

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #59 on: May 19, 2023, 10:48:36 PM »
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  • I am not familiar with Fr Schmidberger, the "then-Superior General" of the SSPX? If he was a sedevacantist, then why would he be eager for an agreement with modernist Rome? Typically, sedevacantists want anything but. It also seems odd that the Superior General of the SSPX would be a sedevacantist. Do you (or PV) have support for his being a sedevacantist?
    That he came to the SSPX as a convert from sedevacantism is something that I have long heard repeated in SSPX circles.