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Author Topic: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse  (Read 5344 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2023, 04:48:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 18, 2023, 08:46:59 AM
    Ha-ha, yes, I’d forgotten about that one!

    Note that in the letter to Fr. Rousseau above, +Vigano also approved of +Williamson’s latest EC. 

    That interesting to me, not just because it reveals that +Vigano is a regular reader of +Williamson, but also because the two primary themes of that EC are:

    1) +Williamson calling +Huonder and the NREC doubtful;

    2) +Williamson discussing the liberal slide of the SSPX, as evinced by the +Huonder episode.

    So, while the latter surely explains why the SSPX is silent on +Vigano (just as today, they would be silent on +Lefebvre), does not the former suggest +Vigano would logically be questioning the validity of his own episcopal consecration (or that he may have taken  action to rectify the matter)?

    Or it could simply mean he recognizes the issue, but being retired and no longer performing episcopal functions, the matter is moot?
    It seems to me that it should be the case.  However, if that is so, he has an obligation to inform that he is either doubting it/has been consecrated in the Old Rite.  Until then, it's pure speculation.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #31 on: May 18, 2023, 05:06:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 18, 2023, 04:38:41 PM
    +Lefebvre was once in Rome when, quite surprisingly, he chanced to bump into then-Superior General, Fr. Franz Schmidberger, and exclaimed, "You!"

    Another time, +Lefebvre and Fr. Schmidberger were in Rome together, to meet with Fr. Schmidberger's friend, Cardinal Ratzinger: Fr. Schmidberger and Cardinal Ratzinger spoke German together, while +Lefebvre looked on.  +Lefebvre did not speak German. 

    +Lefebvre had begun to distrust the Superior General, whom he had once sponsored, because of these things (i.e., Fr. Schmidberger was too eager for an agreement with modernist Rome), and worked to ensure he was not re-elected in 1994.  With the assistance of Fr. Faure, they achieved this objective, but the backup liberal candidate -Fr. Fellay- was elected in his place. 

    These long-forgotten and/or little-known tidbits of history show that the rot was in place even before +Lefebvre died, and was even discreetly working against him.

    The man he could count on most, was the one he submitted to Rome's approval for episcopal consecration in 1987: Fr. Richard Williamson.

    I have all of this in writing.

    Had Lefebvre lived to see the 1994 General Chapter, how different things might have been.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #32 on: May 18, 2023, 07:10:22 PM »
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    • "Actual" footage of +Huonder amidst the neoSSPX......;)

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    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #33 on: May 18, 2023, 09:41:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 18, 2023, 04:38:41 PM
    +Lefebvre was once in Rome when, quite surprisingly, he chanced to bump into then-Superior General, Fr. Franz Schmidberger, and exclaimed, "You!"

    Another time, +Lefebvre and Fr. Schmidberger were in Rome together, to meet with Fr. Schmidberger's friend, Cardinal Ratzinger: Fr. Schmidberger and Cardinal Ratzinger spoke German together, while +Lefebvre looked on.  +Lefebvre did not speak German. 

    +Lefebvre had begun to distrust the Superior General, whom he had once sponsored, because of these things (i.e., Fr. Schmidberger was too eager for an agreement with modernist Rome), and worked to ensure he was not re-elected in 1994.  With the assistance of Fr. Faure, they achieved this objective, but the backup liberal candidate -Fr. Fellay- was elected in his place. 

    These long-forgotten and/or little-known tidbits of history show that the rot was in place even before +Lefebvre died, and was even discreetly working against him.

    The man he could count on most, was the one he submitted to Rome's approval for episcopal consecration in 1987: Fr. Richard Williamson.

    I have all of this in writing.
    Very interesting!
    And yet Fr Schmidberger was apparently sedevacantist before he entered Econe.
    I always had a great esteem for Fr Schmidberger, as also for Fr Laisney. The first thing I did when I woke up to what was going on in the neoSSPX was to check out what these priests were saying. How disappointed I was...
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #34 on: May 18, 2023, 10:15:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on May 18, 2023, 09:41:04 PM
    Very interesting!
    And yet Fr Schmidberger was apparently sedevacantist before he entered Econe.

    It is the same legalism which compels both sedevacantism and indultarianism, so not surprising Fr. Schmidberger should continue to gravitate in that direction.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online St Giles

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #35 on: May 18, 2023, 10:18:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 18, 2023, 04:38:41 PM
    I have all of this in writing.
    May I have a copy of the source?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #36 on: May 18, 2023, 10:26:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: St Giles on May 18, 2023, 10:18:35 PM
    May I have a copy of the source?
    It’s two sources.  They’ll be the included in my next book, which is all but completed except the introduction (which is where these citations will appear).  In any case, since the records are emails, and I haven’t permission to pass out the email addresses, you’ll have to wait.
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    Offline PAT317

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #37 on: May 19, 2023, 06:11:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on May 18, 2023, 09:41:04 PM
    Very interesting!
    And yet Fr Schmidberger ...

    I have also heard it said that after Archbishop Lefebvre announced on 29 June 1987 that he was going to consecrate bishops, Fr. Schmidberger was one of those who kept pressuring him to wait for the Vatican's approval.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #38 on: May 19, 2023, 07:02:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 18, 2023, 10:15:23 PM
    It is the same legalism which compels both sedevacantism and indultarianism, so not surprising Fr. Schmidberger should continue to gravitate in that direction.

    This has to be one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen here yet.  Adherence to the Magisterium and to the fact that the Church cannot defect in the Magisterium and in the Mass you declare to be "legalism".

    :facepalm:

    Schmidberger was about as much a sedevacantist as Bergoglio is now.  He's on the short list of possible infiltrators into the SSPX.  Basically, those who ingratiated themselves most with Archbishop Lefebvre are the highest on the list of suspects.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #39 on: May 19, 2023, 07:42:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 19, 2023, 07:02:01 AM
    This has to be one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen here yet.  Adherence to the Magisterium and to the fact that the Church cannot defect in the Magisterium and in the Mass you declare to be "legalism".

    :facepalm:

    Schmidberger was about as much a sedevacantist as Bergoglio is now.  He's on the short list of possible infiltrators into the SSPX.  Basically, those who ingratiated themselves most with Archbishop Lefebvre are the highest on the list of suspects.
    Note the hypocrisy of Loudestmouth deposing the universal hierarchy, while simultaneously pretending to defend the magisterium.

    Only in his addled brain does ecclesiavacantism not impact indefectibility, but resisting unlawful commands of recognized legitimate superiors does.

    :jester:
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #40 on: May 19, 2023, 08:02:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 18, 2023, 04:38:41 PM
    +Lefebvre was once in Rome when, quite surprisingly, he chanced to bump into then-Superior General, Fr. Franz Schmidberger, and exclaimed, "You!"

    Another time, +Lefebvre and Fr. Schmidberger were in Rome together, to meet with Fr. Schmidberger's friend, Cardinal Ratzinger: Fr. Schmidberger and Cardinal Ratzinger spoke German together, while +Lefebvre looked on.  +Lefebvre did not speak German. 

    +Lefebvre had begun to distrust the Superior General, whom he had once sponsored, because of these things (i.e., Fr. Schmidberger was too eager for an agreement with modernist Rome), and worked to ensure he was not re-elected in 1994.  With the assistance of Fr. Faure, they achieved this objective, but the backup liberal candidate -Fr. Fellay- was elected in his place. 

    These long-forgotten and/or little-known tidbits of history show that the rot was in place even before +Lefebvre died, and was even discreetly working against him.

    The man he could count on most, was the one he submitted to Rome's approval for episcopal consecration in 1987: Fr. Richard Williamson.

    I have all of this in writing.
    I am not familiar with Fr Schmidberger, the "then-Superior General" of the SSPX? If he was a sedevacantist, then why would he be eager for an agreement with modernist Rome? Typically, sedevacantists want anything but. It also seems odd that the Superior General of the SSPX would be a sedevacantist. Do you (or PV) have support for his being a sedevacantist?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #41 on: May 19, 2023, 08:11:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on May 18, 2023, 09:41:04 PM

    And yet Fr Schmidberger was apparently sedevacantist before he entered Econe.
    Please see my post #40 to Sean.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #42 on: May 19, 2023, 08:19:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on May 19, 2023, 08:02:53 AM
    I am not familiar with Fr Schmidberger, the "then-Superior General" of the SSPX? If he was a sedevacantist, then why would he be eager for an agreement with modernist Rome? Typically, sedevacantists want anything but. It also seems odd that the Superior General of the SSPX would be a sedevacantist. Do you (or PV) have support for his being a sedevacantist?

    He was of sedevacantist leanings BEFORE he came to the seminary.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #43 on: May 19, 2023, 08:31:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 19, 2023, 08:19:22 AM
    He was of sedevacantist leanings BEFORE he came to the seminary.
    And yet he was voted Superior General of the SSPX?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Huonder: The Fox in the Henhouse
    « Reply #44 on: May 19, 2023, 08:44:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on May 19, 2023, 08:31:54 AM
    And yet he was voted Superior General of the SSPX?

    Pffft.  I doubt the man was ever a sedevacantist.  You don't go from SVism to being an R&R attempting to cozy up to Rome.  If anything, you go straight back to the Conciliar Church.

    Yes, the MAJOR premise of SVs and conservative Novus Ordites is the same, and they differ on the MINOR.

    SVs --

    MAJOR:  Legitimate Popes, protected as they are by the Holy Spirit, cannot destroy the Church in this manner (Archbishop Lefebvre himself affirmed this).
    MINOR:  Conciliar "Popes" have destroyed the Church.
    CONCLUSION:  Conciliar "Popes" are not legitimate Popes.

    Conciliar Novus Ordites do in fact accept the MAJOR (as did Archbishop Lefebvre).  They reject the MINOR by explaining away or minimizing the Post-V2 destruction.

    R&R and "liberal" Novus Ordites reject the MAJOR.  Where they differ is that R&R accept the MINOR, while Novus Ordites don't think V2 represents any kind of "destruction" but is great stuff.

    This isn't based on "legalism", as Sean claimed, but on some very profound theological principles.  There's nothing "legalistic" about the MAJOR.  Archbishop Lefebvre himself affirmed it.

    What Archbishop Lefebvre did, however, was to distinguish the MAJOR, and he was correct to do so.

    MAJOR:  Legitimate Popes, protected as they are by the Holy Spirit, who are of sound mind and acting freely, cannot destroy the Church in this manner.
    MINOR:  Conciliar "Popes" have destroyed the Church.
    CONCLUSION:  Maybe SVism, maybe something else, such as blackmail or some other unknown factor (he bandied about the imposter pope or drugged pope theories).

    Archbishop Lefebvre was correct in adding this distinguishing to the MAJOR, and given that we don't have the certainty of faith regarding whether Montini et al. were somehow coerced, blackmailed, or even (with Montini) replaced ... we don't have the certainty of faith regarding the conclusion.  Conclusions are only as strong as their premises, and we can only know this CONCLUSION with the same certainty as we can rule out some other nefarious situation short of the Conciliar Popes being strictly illegitimate.

    As I said, I have no problems with this, because the Archbishop affirmed the MAJOR above:

    Legitimate Popes, protected as they are by the Holy Spirit, who are of sound mind and acting freely, cannot destroy the Church in this manner (as we have seen with V2).
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