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Author Topic: Huonder oils and ordinations  (Read 1951 times)

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Offline Kazimierz

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Huonder oils and ordinations
« on: August 13, 2023, 03:25:10 PM »
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  • I am humbly seeking insight as to what the probability of Huonder oils having been used for priestly ordinations in Econe this past June. The priory that serves us has just received one of the new ordinands from Econe. He said his first Mass at our chapel and gave his first public priestly blessings this weekend. 
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #1 on: August 13, 2023, 03:46:06 PM »
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  • I am humbly seeking insight as to what the probability of Huonder oils having been used for priestly ordinations in Econe this past June. The priory that serves us has just received one of the new ordinands from Econe. He said his first Mass at our chapel and gave his first public priestly blessings this weekend.


    The oils are not part of the matter used for the validity of holy orders, fortunately. The imposition of hands is the matter, so the oils would not affect the validity.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #2 on: August 13, 2023, 03:47:55 PM »
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  • BTW, they would affect the validity of extreme unction.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #3 on: August 13, 2023, 04:30:37 PM »
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  • My thanks for the responses. I will have to do some stealth work to find out where our priory obtained their oils from.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #4 on: August 13, 2023, 04:51:57 PM »
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  • BTW, they would affect the validity of extreme unction.

    I agree on it impacting the validity of Extreme Unction but not Holy Orders.

    I’m unsure myself about Confirmation.  Do you or anyone know?


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #5 on: August 13, 2023, 05:06:50 PM »
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  • I am humbly seeking insight as to what the probability of Huonder oils having been used for priestly ordinations in Econe this past June. The priory that serves us has just received one of the new ordinands from Econe. He said his first Mass at our chapel and gave his first public priestly blessings this weekend.

    Although Sacramentum Ordinis limited the imprinting "the character" to laying on of hands (matter) and saying the words of the preface (form), you need to know that the Church has always required "consecration" of the Priest's hands, the paten, and the chalice before he is able to exercise his priesthood with the full "power."

    The oils (real Chrism oil from a real bishop) have always been required for that sacerdotal "power." You can read what Aquinas has to say and decide for yourself.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5

    Sacramentum Ordinis did NOT say that the "consecrations" of the hands, paten and chalice were no longer necessary. In fact, Pius XII said that the entire Rite found in the Roman Pontifical had to be fulfilled. That full Rite included the "consecrations."

    I would say that a priest pseudo-consecrated with fake oils from a fake bishop would need to have his hands, paten, and chalice re-consecrated by a real bishop with real oils. That would be the safer course. But he would not need to be re-ordained.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #6 on: August 13, 2023, 05:08:45 PM »
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  • I agree on it impacting the validity of Extreme Unction but not Holy Orders.

    I’m unsure myself about Confirmation.  Do you or anyone know?

    Sacred Chrism is necessary matter for Confirmation.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q72.A3


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #7 on: August 13, 2023, 05:25:09 PM »
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  • Although Sacramentum Ordinis limited the imprinting "the character" to laying on of hands (matter) and saying the words of the preface (form), you need to know that the Church has always required "consecration" of the Priest's hands, the paten, and the chalice before he is able to exercise his priesthood with the full "power."

    The oils (real Chrism oil from a real bishop) have always been required for that sacerdotal "power." You can read what Aquinas has to say and decide for yourself.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5

    Sacramentum Ordinis did NOT say that the "consecrations" of the hands, paten and chalice were no longer necessary. In fact, Pius XII said that the entire Rite found in the Roman Pontifical had to be fulfilled. That full Rite included the "consecrations."

    I would say that a priest pseudo-consecrated with fake oils from a fake bishop would need to have his hands, paten, and chalice re-consecrated by a real bishop with real oils. That would be the safer course. But he would not need to be re-ordained.


    This is absolutely wrong. Pope Pius XII declared that the matter is the imposition of hands. Period. :


    “In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition of hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: “Accipe Spiritus Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.” And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

    “Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.””
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #8 on: August 13, 2023, 05:30:59 PM »
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  •                                                                Sacramentum Ordinis
    On the Sacrament of Order
    Pope Pius XII - 1947




    Apostolic Constitution Of Pope Pius XII on the Sacrament of Order
    1. The Catholic Faith professes that the Sacrament of Order instituted by Christ, by which are conferred spiritual power and grace to perform properly ecclesiastical functions, is one and the same for the universal Church; for, just as Our Lord Jesus Christ gave to the Church but one and the same government under the Prince of the Apostles, one and the same faith, one and the same sacrifice, so too He gave her but one and the same treasury of efficacious signs of grace, that is, Sacraments. For these Sacraments instituted by Christ Our Lord, the Church in the course of the centuries never substituted other Sacraments, nor could she do so, since, as the Council of Trent teaches (Conc. Trid., Sess. VII, can. 1, De Sacram, in genere), the seven Sacraments of the New Law were all instituted by Jesus Christ Our Lord, and the Church has no power over “the substance of the Sacraments,” that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs.
    2. As regards the Sacrament of Order, of which We are now speaking, it is a fact that, notwithstanding its unity and identity, which no Catholic has ever dared to question, in the course of time, according to varying local and temporal conditions, various rites have been added in its conferring; this was surely the reason why theologians began to inquire which of the rites used in conferring the Sacrament of Order belong to its essence, and which do not; it also gave rise to doubts and anxieties in particular cases; and as a consequence the humble petition has again and again been addressed to the Holy that the supreme Authority of the Church might at last decide what is required for validity in conferring of Sacred Orders.
    3. All agree that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible signs which produce invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they produce and produce the grace which they signify. Now the effects which must be produced and hence also signified by Sacred Ordination to the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy, namely power and grace, in all the rites of various times and places in the universal Church, are found to be sufficiently signified by the imposition of hands and the words which determine it. Besides, every one knows that the Roman Church has always held as valid Ordinations conferred according to the Greek rite without the traditio instrumentorum; so that in the very Council of Florence, in which was effected the union of the Greeks with the Roman Church, the Greeks were not required to change their rite of Ordination or to add to it the traditio instrumentorum: and it was the will of the Church that in Rome itself the Greeks should be ordained according to their own rite. It follows that, even according to the mind of the Council of Florence itself, the traditio instrumentorum is not required for the substance and validity of this Sacrament by the will of Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. If it was at one time necessary even for validity by the will and command of the Church, every one knows that the Church has the power to change and abrogate what she herself has established.
    4. Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects – namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit – and which are accepted and used by the Church in that sense. It follows as a consequence that We should declare, and in order to remove all controversy and to preclude doubts of conscience, We do by Our Apostolic Authority declare, and if there was ever a lawful disposition to the contrary We now decree that at least in the future the traditio instrumentorum is not necessary for the validity of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy.
    5. As to the matter and form in the conferring of each Order, We of Our same supreme Apostolic Authority decree and provide as follows: In the Ordination to the Diaconate, the matter is the one imposition of the hand of the Bishop which occurs in the rite of that Ordination. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:
    “Emitte in eum, quaesumus, Domine, Spiritum Sanctum, quo in opus ministerii tui fideliter exsequendi septiformis gratiae tuae munere roboretur.”
    In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition off hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: “Accipe Spiritum Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.” And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:
    “Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.”
    [“Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, invest this Thy servant with the dignity of the Priesthood; do Thou renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness.”]
    Finally in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:
    “Comple in Sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summam, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore santifica.”
    [“Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing.”]
    All these things are to be done as was determined by Our Apostolic Constitution “Episcopalis Consecrationis” of 30 November, 1944.
    6. In order that there may be no occasion for doubt, We command that in conferring each Order the imposition of hands be done by physically touching the head of the person to be ordained, although a moral contact also is sufficient for the valid conferring of the Sacrament.
    Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.
    The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
    These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same.
    Given at Rome from Saint Peter’s, on the thirtieth of November, Feast of Saint Andrew the Apostle, in the year nineteen hundred and forty-seven, the ninth of Our Pontificate.
    AAS 40-5; Pius XII, Apostolic Constitution, 30 Nov., 1947 Cf. Periodica, 37-9 (Hurth): Commentarium pro Religiosis, 1948, p. 4 (Pujoiras).
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #9 on: August 13, 2023, 05:40:00 PM »
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  • Sacred Chrism is necessary matter for Confirmation.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q72.A3


    I believe you are correct on this.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #10 on: August 13, 2023, 06:00:49 PM »
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  • I am humbly seeking insight as to what the probability of Huonder oils having been used for priestly ordinations in Econe this past June. The priory that serves us has just received one of the new ordinands from Econe. He said his first Mass at our chapel and gave his first public priestly blessings this weekend.

    Well... I'd like to say, "Good eye Kazimierez!"

    The Remnant faithful should always be watchful and suspicious of the infiltration and it's potential impact.

    In a way, Huonder is like Fr. Joe Pfieffer. 
    One who has the potential of causing great damage with the Faith and the Sacraments.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #11 on: August 13, 2023, 06:57:21 PM »
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  • This is absolutely wrong. Pope Pius XII declared that the matter is the imposition of hands. Period. :


    “In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition of hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: “Accipe Spiritus Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.” And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

    “Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.””

    You are failing to make a distinction. I agree that the "matter" for the imprinting of the indelible character is, as you say, "the imposition of hands." But the consecration of the hands of the ordinand is a separate step in the Rite that has a special purpose.

    As I said, Aquinas makes the distinction between the three steps, (1) the blessing, (2) the imposition of the hands and (3) the consecration by anointing with Chrism oil. These three things had always been required in the full Rite of Ordination.

    Pius XII simply said that the Sacrament of Order (the indelible character) is imprinted using the matter and form that he referenced. At the same time, he stated that the rest of the Rite was absolutely necessary and must not be left out.

    However, St. Thomas and Pius XII disagreed concerning the exact point that the indelible character was imprinted. Pius XII settled the centuries old controversy on that issue. But the consecration by anointing with Chrism is still necessary to make efficacious the fullness of the sacerdotal priesthood. St. Thomas explains what that step does, again here:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5

    Pius XII does not even discuss that step because that was not the subject of Sacramentum Ordinis. But he makes clear that the full Rite must be done exactly as it always had been, presumably for the reasons stated by St. Thomas.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

    "Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

    The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
    These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same."


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #12 on: August 13, 2023, 07:31:54 PM »
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  • So does mean all those confirmed by this new oil would not be valid?

    I was 'confirmed' in the novus ordo so when I find an opportunity to get conditionally confirmed (assuming I need one) this is something I will need to consider.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #13 on: August 13, 2023, 07:44:05 PM »
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  • You are failing to make a distinction. I agree that the "matter" for the imprinting of the indelible character is, as you say, "the imposition of hands." But the consecration of the hands of the ordinand is a separate step in the Rite that has a special purpose.

    As I said, Aquinas makes the distinction between the three steps, (1) the blessing, (2) the imposition of the hands and (3) the consecration by anointing with Chrism oil. These three things had always been required in the full Rite of Ordination.

    Pius XII simply said that the Sacrament of Order (the indelible character) is imprinted using the matter and form that he referenced. At the same time, he stated that the rest of the Rite was absolutely necessary and must not be left out.

    However, St. Thomas and Pius XII disagreed concerning the exact point that the indelible character was imprinted. Pius XII settled the centuries old controversy on that issue. But the consecration by anointing with Chrism is still necessary to make efficacious the fullness of the sacerdotal priesthood. St. Thomas explains what that step does, again here:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5

    Pius XII does not even discuss that step because that was not the subject of Sacramentum Ordinis. But he makes clear that the full Rite must be done exactly as it always had been, presumably for the reasons stated by St. Thomas.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

    "Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

    The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
    These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same."


    He did not say that the rest of the rite is absolutely necessary. I think you are confusing validity with licitness. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #14 on: August 13, 2023, 08:00:22 PM »
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  • He did not say that the rest of the rite is absolutely necessary. I think you are confusing validity with licitness.

    Here is Pius XII's exact quote, again, which other readers can use to draw their own conclusions about the Pope's intentions:

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

    "Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

    The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
    These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same."