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Author Topic: Huonder oils and ordinations  (Read 2571 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2023, 09:06:44 PM »
Nope. You are confusing what is necessary for validity with what is necessary for liceity.

To get at what is necessary for validity, one examines the ceremonies of ordination across all the liturgical rites in search of what is common to all. In doing this, one sees that the imposition of hands is the only common matter across rites. Hence and contrary to the Council of Florence, Pius XII defined imposition of hands as the necessary matter of Orders for validity.

If you really want to make a the head of a neoscholastic theologian explode, research what is the necessary form for valid ordinations.
🤯

I challenge you to find one time that I used the word "validity" or "valid" in this thread. The Consecration of the Priest's hands and paten and chalice are required not for the "validity" of the Sacrament, but for the perfection of the power of the Sacrament.

And, no, you are wrong, one does not take a least-common-denominator approach to determining validity of a Sacrament. One looks at what the highest Roman Catholic Church authorities have said is necessary for validity in the Roman Rite.

Other Rites (Byzantine, etc.) are different and what is valid in the Byzantine Rite does not necessarily transfer to the Roman Rite automatically. That incorrect assumption is part of the Modernist-Ecuмenist deception. If a Pope has defined "the form" in the Roman Rite to be X (and otherwise said it is invalid), then "the form" in the Roman Rite must be X. It doesn't matter what another Rite does.

Offline Angelus

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Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2023, 09:22:03 PM »
That is just a dumb statement.

A deacon is an ordinary minister of communion. His hands are not consecrated with Chrism. Further, an acolyte is an extraordinary minister of communion and his hands too are not consecrated with Chrism.

Put down Aquinas' Summa for a while and read the Church Fathers and, equally important, read the decrees of the ecuмenical councils and local councils of the early Church.

Maybe you should brush up on Canon Law, Elwin. In the traditional Catholic Church, the deacon is not "an ordinary minister of communion." And only for a "grave cause" and "legitimate necessity" can a deacon hand out Holy Communion.

Canon 845 (1917):

§ 1. The ordinary minister of holy communion is only a priest.
§ 2. A deacon is an extraordinary [minister], authorized by the local Ordinary or a pastor, granted for grave cause, which in case of legitimate necessity is presumed.


Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2023, 05:51:26 AM »
Angelus, clearly we belong to different religions since mine is Catholic (universal, pertaing to the whole Church, all 24 Churches sui juris) and yours is heretodoxically particular (some idolatry of the Latin Church sui juris).

Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2023, 07:15:08 AM »
Maybe you should brush up on Canon Law, Elwin. In the traditional Catholic Church, the deacon is not "an ordinary minister of communion." And only for a "grave cause" and "legitimate necessity" can a deacon hand out Holy Communion.

Canon 845 (1917):

§ 1. The ordinary minister of holy communion is only a priest.
§ 2. A deacon is an extraordinary [minister], authorized by the local Ordinary or a pastor, granted for grave cause, which in case of legitimate necessity is presumed.

From time to time, I have noticed SSPX deacons distributing Communion.

Since there is no grave cause or necessity, am I to presume this practice is justified according to the 1983 Code (which considers deacons as ordinary ministers of the Eucharist)?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2023, 08:40:34 AM »

He did not say that the rest of the rite is absolutely necessary. I think you are confusing validity with licitness.

You are correct.  While these other aspects of the Rite (including the traditio instrumentorum) continue to be required, they are not essential for validity.