Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Huonder oils and ordinations  (Read 2572 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2023, 06:00:49 PM »
I am humbly seeking insight as to what the probability of Huonder oils having been used for priestly ordinations in Econe this past June. The priory that serves us has just received one of the new ordinands from Econe. He said his first Mass at our chapel and gave his first public priestly blessings this weekend.

Well... I'd like to say, "Good eye Kazimierez!"

The Remnant faithful should always be watchful and suspicious of the infiltration and it's potential impact.

In a way, Huonder is like Fr. Joe Pfieffer. 
One who has the potential of causing great damage with the Faith and the Sacraments.

Offline Angelus

  • Supporter
Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2023, 06:57:21 PM »

This is absolutely wrong. Pope Pius XII declared that the matter is the imposition of hands. Period. :


“In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition of hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: “Accipe Spiritus Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.” And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

“Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.””

You are failing to make a distinction. I agree that the "matter" for the imprinting of the indelible character is, as you say, "the imposition of hands." But the consecration of the hands of the ordinand is a separate step in the Rite that has a special purpose.

As I said, Aquinas makes the distinction between the three steps, (1) the blessing, (2) the imposition of the hands and (3) the consecration by anointing with Chrism oil. These three things had always been required in the full Rite of Ordination.

Pius XII simply said that the Sacrament of Order (the indelible character) is imprinted using the matter and form that he referenced. At the same time, he stated that the rest of the Rite was absolutely necessary and must not be left out.

However, St. Thomas and Pius XII disagreed concerning the exact point that the indelible character was imprinted. Pius XII settled the centuries old controversy on that issue. But the consecration by anointing with Chrism is still necessary to make efficacious the fullness of the sacerdotal priesthood. St. Thomas explains what that step does, again here:

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5

Pius XII does not even discuss that step because that was not the subject of Sacramentum Ordinis. But he makes clear that the full Rite must be done exactly as it always had been, presumably for the reasons stated by St. Thomas.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

"Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same."



Offline AnthonyPadua

  • Supporter
Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2023, 07:31:54 PM »
So does mean all those confirmed by this new oil would not be valid?

I was 'confirmed' in the novus ordo so when I find an opportunity to get conditionally confirmed (assuming I need one) this is something I will need to consider.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2023, 07:44:05 PM »
You are failing to make a distinction. I agree that the "matter" for the imprinting of the indelible character is, as you say, "the imposition of hands." But the consecration of the hands of the ordinand is a separate step in the Rite that has a special purpose.

As I said, Aquinas makes the distinction between the three steps, (1) the blessing, (2) the imposition of the hands and (3) the consecration by anointing with Chrism oil. These three things had always been required in the full Rite of Ordination.

Pius XII simply said that the Sacrament of Order (the indelible character) is imprinted using the matter and form that he referenced. At the same time, he stated that the rest of the Rite was absolutely necessary and must not be left out.

However, St. Thomas and Pius XII disagreed concerning the exact point that the indelible character was imprinted. Pius XII settled the centuries old controversy on that issue. But the consecration by anointing with Chrism is still necessary to make efficacious the fullness of the sacerdotal priesthood. St. Thomas explains what that step does, again here:

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q37.A5

Pius XII does not even discuss that step because that was not the subject of Sacramentum Ordinis. But he makes clear that the full Rite must be done exactly as it always had been, presumably for the reasons stated by St. Thomas.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

"Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same."


He did not say that the rest of the rite is absolutely necessary. I think you are confusing validity with licitness. 

Offline Angelus

  • Supporter
Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2023, 08:00:22 PM »

He did not say that the rest of the rite is absolutely necessary. I think you are confusing validity with licitness.

Here is Pius XII's exact quote, again, which other readers can use to draw their own conclusions about the Pope's intentions:

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

"Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same."