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Author Topic: How to behave in uncertainty  (Read 8791 times)

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Offline Gray2023

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Re: How to behave in uncertainty
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2025, 04:40:45 PM »
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  • I use the SSPX for the Mass and the sacraments. That's what I use them for. Unlike the FSSP, the SSPX I go to have always had and still have valid priests and have never preached anything but the Catholic faith.

    I have already presented my side of the argument, in a nutshell, we do not need to be concerned about the status of popes, never have. What we do need is true priests who celebrate the true Mass for us and administer the sacraments to us in this crisis.

    The dogma states that in order to get to heaven, we must be subjects of the pope, iow, otherwise we will go to hell. If that means we should all be NO to you, then you have not read my posts and have no idea what being the pope's good subject, but God's first, means. 
    How can the NO Catholic Church have a valid Pope (considering that Pope Francis is not a valid Bishop, and may not be a valid priest), but not valid priests and Bishops?  This is where you are confusing.

    Not to mention, but isn't that the heresy of the Orthodox Catholics, that the papacy doesn't really matter?

    And why are you quoting St. Thomas Moore when Henry the XIII was trying to make himself the head of the church?  What does that have to do with this Crisis?

    Essentially you are saying that you are subjecting yourself to the empty chair of Peter.  

    And since I know the way I put things is not intellectually sound, can some one help fix it, so it is more acceptable to logic.  Thank you in advance.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #46 on: March 19, 2025, 04:55:59 PM »
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  • Ahhh, the mind of a sede is stuck on blindly obeying popes, even if it means offending God.

    As I have said, what I've posted is not the least bit complicated, it is basic Catholicism, stop complicating it.
    Far from it. Popes can make mistakes. They can even give you wrong opinions on non-defined doctrines (example pope John XXII and beatific vision). They cannot however send you to hell with their "teachings", that is 100% certain.

    You are refusing to engage in honest debate and answer the simple questions.

    1. What or who gives you the right to resist the new rite which pope (if you believe he is the one) has every right to give you? 
    2. How can you go to bed at night knowing that you claim Spotless Bride can give its children poison unto damnation when we know that "Certainly the loving Mother is spotless in the Sacraments by which she gives birth to and nourishes her children; in the faith which she has always preserved inviolate; in her sacred laws imposed on all.


    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, #9:

    "discipline sanctioned by the Church must never be rejected or be branded as contrary to certain principles of natural law. It must never be called crippled, or imperfect or subject to civil authority. In this discipline the administration of sacred rites, standards of morality, and the reckoning of the rights of the Church and her ministers are embraced."


    Your notion of what you are allowed and not allowed to do when real pope commands is so off, but that is no wonder. Everyone who blindly listens to Swiss substitute magisterium suffers from similar illness. 

    All you do is repeat your own "opinion" without one real quote that supports your stance. And no, quoting scripture out of context is quality of thousands protestant sects. Tell me one theologian that supports extreme view that Church gives poison, pope can be a raging heretic and laws to which Christ's bride gives you can send you to hell. Name just ONE! (and you dare to call out others from derailing). :facepalm:





    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #47 on: March 19, 2025, 07:32:16 PM »
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  • If the question is open, you must play it safe and say una cuм.  This is why the sedevacantist opinion was always fair game in the Society, but non una cuм was not.

    This does not make sense. If the question is open, people can have different opinions.

    As far as I know, the SSPX fellows consider Sedevacantists almost as evil as the Devil himself.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #48 on: March 20, 2025, 05:55:15 AM »
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  • How can the NO Catholic Church have a valid Pope (considering that Pope Francis is not a valid Bishop, and may not be a valid priest), but not valid priests and Bishops?  This is where you are confusing.
    I am merely quoting cuм ex of Pope Paul the 4th who condemns "each and every member of the following categories - Bishops, Archbishops, Patriarchs, Primates, Cardinals, Legates, Counts, Barons, Marquises, Dukes, Kings and Emperors," in many other places he he simply says: "Anysoever who..." 

    Not to mention, but isn't that the heresy of the Orthodox Catholics, that the papacy doesn't really matter?
    The schismatic Orthodox reject the pope as pope, they reject papal supremacy, they say that the pope is only leader or head of the Bishops, not the whole Church. Which in essence is the same as sedeism, but with a different twist.

    And why are you quoting St. Thomas Moore when Henry the XIII was trying to make himself the head of the church?  What does that have to do with this Crisis?

    Essentially you are saying that you are subjecting yourself to the empty chair of Peter.
    St. Thomas More's last words on earth *is* the Church's highest Principle, that we obey God first, then man if we can do so without offending God. We can replace the word "king" with every and any of our superiors, I replaced it with "pope." 

    By saying "pope," I am saying that as the pope's good subject, I will do whatever the pope commands as long as it does not offend God. If that means I can never do anything he wants me to do because it offends God, then that's what it means, that is the Church's highest principle and that's why I paraphrased St. Thomas More's last words.



    This principle btw, is something I, and at one time I mistakenly thought that all children learned this principle the same as I did, from my parents, particularly my mother from the time she taught us how to make the sign of the cross we learned that *no matter who* tells us to do something, i.e. friend, sibling, relative, etc., even her -  we cannot listen if what they want us to do offends God. Apparently this most basic and essential of all Catholic principles is foreign to most people, including many trads and especially sedes, who seem to absolutely abhor it.         



    I am not the one subjecting to or insisting there is an empty Chair, it is the sede mindset that makes sedes go to great lengths in their attempts to prove the chair is empty, and maintain an empty chair.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #49 on: March 20, 2025, 07:01:57 AM »
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  • Far from it. Popes can make mistakes. They can even give you wrong opinions on non-defined doctrines (example pope John XXII and beatific vision). They cannot however send you to hell with their "teachings", that is 100% certain.
    You argue the same arguments that have been argued since the early 1970s, and have been repeated on this site ad nauseam.

    Popes are not impeccable, as cuм ex says which you ignore, popes can even be heretics. There is not a single sin that popes cannot commit, the sin we're talking about in this discussion is the sin of heresy.

    Popes' teachings cannot send anyone to hell, anymore than they can send *you* to hell. What, in your hypocrisy do you think you are the only one capable of knowing truth from heresy? What you are 100% certain of, V2 proves you to be 100% wrong.
    You are refusing to engage in honest debate and answer the simple questions.

    1. What or who gives you the right to resist the new rite which pope (if you believe he is the one) has every right to give you?
    2. How can you go to bed at night knowing that you claim Spotless Bride can give its children poison unto damnation when we know that "Certainly the loving Mother is spotless in the Sacraments by which she gives birth to and nourishes her children; in the faith which she has always preserved inviolate; in her sacred laws imposed on all.
    1. I already told you, we are bound by a prior law, the law of Quo Primum which binds us to that rite. I have never denied that popes can give us a new rite.
    2. You are the one claiming the "Spotless Bride can give its children poison unto damnation," not me. I am agreeing with cuм ex, that the conciliar popes are heretics, their heresies are the poison, something you insist is impossible. I quoted cuм ex for you, but out of necessity to maintain an empty chair, you ignored it, which is par for the course.

    You need to accept and keep always at the forefront that the pope is not the Church.
    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, #9:

    "discipline sanctioned by the Church must never be rejected or be branded as contrary to certain principles of natural law. It must never be called crippled, or imperfect or subject to civil authority. In this discipline the administration of sacred rites, standards of morality, and the reckoning of the rights of the Church and her ministers are embraced."
    100% agree! This is of course 100% basic Catholicism. But there is another thing you need to always remember, always remember that the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church. You are consistently confusing the two.
    Your notion of what you are allowed and not allowed to do when real pope commands is so off, but that is no wonder. Everyone who blindly listens to Swiss substitute magisterium suffers from similar illness.
    I told you that I remain the pope's good subject, but God's first - remember? I said this some few posts ago. I have told you that I will do whatever the pope commands, as long as it does not offend God - remember?

    I've asked you to post a command given us by the pope, any command, preferably one we can obey that does not offend God, but any command will do. Just post one command, this is all I ask.

    You and your "swiss magisterium" already is beyond ignorant. I realize the SSPX is not a sede sect, but c'mon already.
    All you do is repeat your own "opinion" without one real quote that supports your stance. And no, quoting scripture out of context is quality of thousands protestant sects. Tell me one theologian that supports extreme view that Church gives poison, pope can be a raging heretic and laws to which Christ's bride gives you can send you to hell. Name just ONE! (and you dare to call out others from derailing). :facepalm:
    Posting Scripture is only out of context when it disagrees with the sede mentality striving to maintain an empty chair. There are zero theologians that support the Church can give out poison, to even ask such a thing bespeaks great ignorance on your part.

    Again, you are confusing the conciliar church as being the Catholic Church, you need to accept that they are two separate churches. The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church, you need to always remember this!

    You also confuse the pope as being the Church, this might be worse than confusing the conciliar church as being the Catholic Church. Not sure about that, but either way all it does is confuse you more than you already are.

    If some of this comes across as insulting, I do apologize as that is not my intention, but trying to be blunt for the sake TLDR, it might come across that way.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #50 on: March 20, 2025, 08:17:33 AM »
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  • And that everyone is a the prime example of R&R gaslighting everyone. 


    
Just to be clear, sedevacantist know very well the distinction between true Church teachings and false ones. 



    It is the R&R camp, who has created this cohabitating monster. Where pope is both pope of conciliar church and catholic church. 

Conveniently it follows when he teaches the heresies, he was of course wearing the conciliar cloth. When he is saying something catholic, then he is our good papa. 



    The only issue is, Stubborn, Menzingen and others have that authority above the pope of course to tell us when this is. You see us mere mortals don’t read hearts and souls. The later bunch do. Naturally, this special gift can have everyone infallible. You just have to work with them.

You could say it this way. Pope is right when he is right. And when he is wrong, well he wasn’t of course using his papal powers then. 


    What a breakthrough! This solves everything, right? 


    Your theology is very confusing, very poor and no wonder it creates so much chaos. It all stems from neo-sspx’s tendency to sit on two chairs. 
Sitting on 2 chairs my friends is not how one behaves in uncertainty. Being neither hot or cold eventually gets one vomited as per the scripture.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #51 on: March 20, 2025, 09:33:54 AM »
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  • I've asked you more than once to post a command given us by the pope, any command, preferably one we can obey that does not offend God, but any command will do. Just post one command, this is all I ask.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #52 on: March 20, 2025, 10:32:44 AM »
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  • You argue the same arguments that have been argued since the early 1970s, and have been repeated on this site ad nauseam.

    Popes are not impeccable, as cuм ex says which you ignore, popes can even be heretics. There is not a single sin that popes cannot commit, the sin we're talking about in this discussion is the sin of heresy.

    Popes' teachings cannot send anyone to hell, anymore than they can send *you* to hell. What, in your hypocrisy do you think you are the only one capable of knowing truth from heresy? What you are 100% certain of, V2 proves you to be 100% wrong.1. I already told you, we are bound by a prior law, the law of Quo Primum which binds us to that rite. I have never denied that popes can give us a new rite.
    2. You are the one claiming the "Spotless Bride can give its children poison unto damnation," not me. I am agreeing with cuм ex, that the conciliar popes are heretics, their heresies are the poison, something you insist is impossible. I quoted cuм ex for you, but out of necessity to maintain an empty chair, you ignored it, which is par for the course.

    You need to accept and keep always at the forefront that the pope is not the Church.100% agree! This is of course 100% basic Catholicism. But there is another thing you need to always remember, always remember that the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church. You are consistently confusing the two. I told you that I remain the pope's good subject, but God's first - remember? I said this some few posts ago. I have told you that I will do whatever the pope commands, as long as it does not offend God - remember?

    I've asked you to post a command given us by the pope, any command, preferably one we can obey that does not offend God, but any command will do. Just post one command, this is all I ask.

    You and your "swiss magisterium" already is beyond ignorant. I realize the SSPX is not a sede sect, but c'mon already. Posting Scripture is only out of context when it disagrees with the sede mentality striving to maintain an empty chair. There are zero theologians that support the Church can give out poison, to even ask such a thing bespeaks great ignorance on your part.

    Again, you are confusing the conciliar church as being the Catholic Church, you need to accept that they are two separate churches. The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church, you need to always remember this!

    You also confuse the pope as being the Church, this might be worse than confusing the conciliar church as being the Catholic Church. Not sure about that, but either way all it does is confuse you more than you already are.

    If some of this comes across as insulting, I do apologize as that is not my intention, but trying to be blunt for the sake TLDR, it might come across that way.
    This is a lot of mental gymnastics.  I am not sure I can keep up.

    Stubborn, please clarify, and answer these questions.

    Who is Pope Francis?

    What exactly is the Conciliar Church and what exactly is the Catholic Church?

    At this point, who is truly keeping the Catholic Faith?





    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #53 on: March 20, 2025, 12:19:55 PM »
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  • I've asked you more than once to post a command given us by the pope, any command, preferably one we can obey that does not offend God, but any command will do. Just post one command, this is all I ask.
    I've told you already. I've quoted Montini where he invokes the same supreme authority that pope Pius V did: 
    "The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old, after mature deliberation, following upon the requests of the Second Vatican Council. In no different way did our holy Predecessor Pius V make obligatory the Missal reformed under his authority, following the Council of Trent.

    With the same supreme authority that comes from Christ Jesus, we call for the same obedience to all the other liturgical, disciplinary and pastoral reforms which have matured in these years in the implementation of the Council decrees. Any initiative which tries to obstruct them cannot claim the prerogative of rendering a service to the Church; in fact it causes the Church serious damage."

    To which you replied that you basically dispensed yourself as older force is binding. Says where exactly Stubborn? Says who? Pope is the proximate rule of faith, you ought to listen to him over the substitute Swiss magisterium. Get it yet? 
    You simply have NO leg to stand on.

    Notice this again-"The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old and notice this what pope Pius XII said what pope can do- "to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification"

    Can we appeal to older just because we feel like it. No, we cannot! This is the teaching of the Church:

    "it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.” (Pope Leo XII, Epistola Tua)

    Therefore when Stubborn is faced with two differing directives, he dispensed himself from the the new one because SSM (aka Swiss substitute magisterium) has allowed him to do so. 

    For one traditionalist, this is not a "traditional" attitude at all... 





    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #54 on: March 20, 2025, 12:44:45 PM »
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  • This is a lot of mental gymnastics.  I am not sure I can keep up.

    Stubborn, please clarify, and answer these questions.

    1. Who is Pope Francis?

    2. What exactly is the Conciliar Church and what exactly is the Catholic Church?

    3. At this point, who is truly keeping the Catholic Faith?
    Seems quite clear to me, what's there to keep up with?
    1. Pope Francis is the pope.
    2. The conciliar church is the church of V2, it's false religion apes that of the true Church. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, outside of which there is no salvation.
    3. All those who remain within the Catholic Church and stay faithful to all that she is and all that she teaches.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #55 on: March 20, 2025, 01:06:17 PM »
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  • Seems quite clear to me, what's there to keep up with?
    1. Pope Francis is the pope.
    2. The conciliar church is the church of V2, it's false religion apes that of the true Church. The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, outside of which there is no salvation.
    3. All those who remain within the Catholic Church and stay faithful to all that she is and all that she teaches.
    Where you lose me is that you won't go to a Mass that has invalid priests or bishops, which means you won't go to a mass said by Pope Francis, but he is still the head of the Catholic church. Can you explain your reasoning here?
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #56 on: March 20, 2025, 01:07:08 PM »
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  • I've told you already. I've quoted Montini where he invokes the same supreme authority that pope Pius V did:
    "The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old, after mature deliberation, following upon the requests of the Second Vatican Council. In no different way did our holy Predecessor Pius V make obligatory the Missal reformed under his authority, following the Council of Trent.

    With the same supreme authority that comes from Christ Jesus, we call for the same obedience to all the other liturgical, disciplinary and pastoral reforms which have matured in these years in the implementation of the Council decrees. Any initiative which tries to obstruct them cannot claim the prerogative of rendering a service to the Church; in fact it causes the Church serious damage."

    To which you replied that you basically dispensed yourself as older force is binding. Says where exactly Stubborn? Says who? Pope is the proximate rule of faith, you ought to listen to him over the substitute Swiss magisterium. Get it yet?
    You simply have NO leg to stand on.
    Honestly, you simply cannot be that ignorant of Quo Primum, but it seems you are, so please read the link. We are bound to the law of Quo Primum "in perpetuity." 

    For you from Quo Primum, which is the law that binds us...."Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us."
    Quote
    Notice this again-"The new Ordo was promulgated to take the place of the old and notice this what pope Pius XII said what pope can do- "to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification"


    Can we appeal to older just because we feel like it. No, we cannot! This is the teaching of the Church:
    Then you go to it.

    No, fyi, we do not avoid the new rite because we feel like it, maybe you do, but Catholics do not. Catholics avoid it because it is evil. It is evil in its liturgy, it is evil in it's doctrines, it is evil in those who attend it. THAT'S why we avoid it.

    Quote
    "it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.” (Pope Leo XII, Epistola Tua)

    Therefore when Stubborn is faced with two differing directives, he dispensed himself from the the new one because SSM (aka Swiss substitute magisterium) has allowed him to do so. 

    For one traditionalist, this is not a "traditional" attitude at all... 
    You use the same typical modernist reasoning that has been used against trads from the beginning - you are preaching BLIND OBEDIENCE, just like the Church's enemies do. The Church TEACHES ONLY TRUE OBEDIENCE and condemns BLIND OBEDIENCE. You adhere to what the Church has always condemned, we are not allowed to be mindless in our obligation of obedience to any authority on earth.

    We laypeople are not the ones that set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Are you daft man? The conciliar Pontiffs are guilty of this, not us. smh

    We do not reject the present one to hold to the past for the sake of holding to the past. Again, are you daft man? We hold onto the past because we are bound to, we have no choice in the matter if we want to save our souls. GOT IT? 

    I suggest you study the Catholic faith a lot more than you do, if you do at all.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #57 on: March 20, 2025, 01:18:03 PM »
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  • Where you lose me is that you won't go to a Mass that has invalid priests or bishops, which means you won't go to a mass said by Pope Francis, but he is still the head of the Catholic church. Can you explain your reasoning here?
    If I ever needed to concern myself with such a hypothetical...but I digress. I would not attend any NO "mass" no matter who said it because the thing is evil no matter who says it, it is evil, and it is for that reason I would not go to it. No need to worry about the pope saying the True Mass, he hates it and will never say it. So that idea is even less of a concern than attendance at his saying the NO "mass."

    About 25 or so years ago, I went to the only NO I can remember in my life, it was a funeral NO "mass" for a young man of about 32 years old that I worked with, I was literally ill for a whole day after that. Although I've tried, I guess I will never forget it, but it's not an exaggeration to say the NO "mass" is evil.  
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #58 on: March 20, 2025, 02:23:06 PM »
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  • Honestly, you simply cannot be that ignorant of Quo Primum, but it seems you are, so please read the link. We are bound to the law of Quo Primum "in perpetuity."

    For you from Quo Primum, which is the law that binds us...."Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us."Then you go to it.

    Stubborn, again you have no clue what you are taking about. Qup primum also says- Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Would anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

    So either no one is no one or there is someone who is allowed to. Of course the asnwer for catholics is very simple here. 


    Now, tell me this. In less than 70 years after Quo Primum there have been 2 alterations. In 1604, Pope Clement VIII issued new regulations for the Blessing at Mass, and in 1634 Pope Urban VIII changed the wording of the Missals rubrics and hymn texts.

    1. Now Stubborn, did those 2 popes incur the wrath of Almighty God or did they have every right to alter (as popes do) what they deemed was necessary? 

    2. Was there any "resisting" going on by Stubborns of the time and would it be justified? Yes or no?

    3. Would the laity have a "right" to cry- ohh but your Holiness, we do not want to be "blind" and follow you "blindly"... You might be giving us poison..

    What a load of nonsense follows out of the confused and non consistent R&R "reasoning"... 



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to behave in uncertainty
    « Reply #59 on: March 20, 2025, 03:01:11 PM »
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  • Stubborn, again you have no clue what you are taking about. Qup primum also says- Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Would anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

    So either no one is no one or there is someone who is allowed to. Of course the asnwer for catholics is very simple here.
    What are you talking about? Do you have reading comprehension problems?

    "No one whosoever" means no one is permitted to alter *this notice*... (i.e. this law). The law is what no one is permitted to alter. This includes future popes. He bound even future popes to the law of Quo Primum. If you want to say he could not do that, then you are saying in binding even future popes to the law, the pope (St. Pius V) did something he didn't know he couldn't do - which is balderdash!
    Now, tell me this. In less than 70 years after Quo Primum there have been 2 alterations. In 1604, Pope Clement VIII issued new regulations for the Blessing at Mass, and in 1634 Pope Urban VIII changed the wording of the Missals rubrics and hymn texts.

    1. Now Stubborn, did those 2 popes incur the wrath of Almighty God or did they have every right to alter (as popes do) what they deemed was necessary?

    2. Was there any "resisting" going on by Stubborns of the time and would it be justified? Yes or no?

    3. Would the laity have a "right" to cry- ohh but your Holiness, we do not want to be "blind" and follow you "blindly"... You might be giving us poison..

    What a load of nonsense follows out of the confused and non consistent R&R "reasoning"...

    1. It goes without saying, literally, that incidental changes made by popes were allowed, these are changes that did not change the formula, nor alter the rite of the Mass in any way. Quo Primum does not say popes could not make incidental changes.
    2. No, incidental changes to the Mass is altogether different than entirely replacing the True Mass with a new, sacrilegious rite. Are you daft man? You mean you don't know, as blatant as it is, the difference?
    3. :facepalm: x 1000

    Oh the lengths you sedes will go to in order to maintain an empty chair. After all these years I still find it somewhat remarkable. And again, I sincerely hope your opinion is right.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse