Should the members be allowed to talk to each other?

Can they exchange phone numbers or e-mail addresses and discuss things off-site?

Should a chapel consider each and every member of that chapel to be its "exclusive property"?

I believe it would be a sign of good will on the part of the chapel to publish a parish directory with names, addresses, phone numbers, and e-mail addresses. Parish members should be able to freely communicate with one another.

If an organization makes a bad move, should its members be allowed to freely talk to each other (outside the chapel, in the hall, etc.) and even discuss other options for Mass? Some might leave if this is allowed. Are there any tactics that can be lawfully employed to prevent this?

Perhaps a chapel can simply exercise a minimal level of control, such as ripping down posters/flyers posted without permission -- that much seems fair. If you want to recruit for the a new chapel in the area, etc. you should have to do it by word of mouth. May the best chapel win.

Shouldn't members be respected at all times as adults that can make choices about their souls? Shouldn't they be treated like adults who know what's best for their souls, rather than mindless sheep that need the "cult daddy" to approve everything they do?

Just like some people rely on the government and don't take responsibility for their lives, there are some who place their SPIRITUAL welfare in the hands of this or that "group" or cult.

No, we must only be absolutely loyal to the Catholic Church. We are responsible for saving our own souls (and those of our family members) and we must use our prudence to determine where, in this Church Crisis, we can be safe and receive the Catholic Faith. We already determined that the Novus Ordo isn't going to cut it -- too dangerous; too many spiritual casualties. But where to go from there? That's up to each one of us.

Shouldn't members be respected at all times as adults that can make choices about their souls? Shouldn't they be treated like adults who know what's best for their souls, rather than mindless sheep that need the "cult daddy" to approve everything they do?

Yes, their religious liberty should be respected at all times.

Ladislaus's comment above is out of line.

That was a joke, but a joke that was intended to make a point.

Where's the line between legitimate authority and cult-like micromanagement / control?

Pastor (normally) does have legitimate authority to exercise on behalf of souls and for the good of the parish.  Where does he go over the line?  Not an easy black-and-white question.

As a perfect example, you have the common misconception (actively taught by Menzingen and company) that SSPX Catholics-in-the-pews owe a special "obedience" to Bishop Fellay, Fr. Rostand, etc.

No, they don't.

They owe obedience to the FAITH and to their local Ordinaries in the dioceses where they live.

We legitimately disobey our local Ordinaries because they are leading us away from the Faith. So we scurry around looking for a place to receive the Sacraments that will not harm our Faith. We find various safe harbors here and there.

The SSPX is merely operating with supplied jurisdiction, like all the other Trad groups. They have no special claim to obedience. They deserve our respect only insofar as they are fighting the good fight for the Faith itself. If that ever ceases, they will be worthless and have no God-based claims on our obedience whatsoever.

At my SSPX chapel, they seem to have something happening almost monthly - parish picnic, baseball, school play, BBQ and etc. where they at least try to get the community together - I think most of the time it's the priest who tries to get the people to do something together as a parish, and quite often there is a nice turnout.

I know there are a lot of folks there who choose not to socialize which is fine, but there are also a lot who met each other and became friends at these events as well.

As for having control over the chapel, the priest is the boss so far as things like finances are concerned or perhaps some other functions of the chapel - but no way should the chapel be like what you are describing - where are those things going on?

This is a philosophical discussion, inspired by the current situation in the SSPX, but mostly to lay the philosophical groundwork about Trad chapels in general.

I hope this clears things up.

As a perfect example, you have the common misconception (actively taught by Menzingen and company) that SSPX Catholics-in-the-pews owe a special "obedience" to Bishop Fellay, Fr. Rostand, etc.

No, they don't.

They owe obedience to the FAITH and to their local Ordinaries in the dioceses where they live.

We legitimately disobey our local Ordinaries because they are leading us away from the Faith. So we scurry around looking for a place to receive the Sacraments that will not harm our Faith. We find various safe harbors here and there.

The SSPX is merely operating with supplied jurisdiction, like all the other Trad groups. They have no special claim to obedience. They deserve our respect only insofar as they are fighting the good fight for the Faith itself. If that ever ceases, they will be worthless and have no God-based claims on our obedience whatsoever.

I was going to bring this up.  As I understand it, we Catholics aren't supposed to be 'parish shopping' anyways right ?  We are supposed to support our local parish that is where our legitimate pastor is.  Obviously with the crisis being what it is, this is an option for very few of us.  But perhaps with the crisis in the Church continuing on, some traditional clergy are forgetting that they are not our pastors, technically speaking ?  That said, it is a bit difficult to balance trying to have a normal parish life for us traditional Catholics, in what amounts to not a parish but a life boat.  Perhaps a good reminder for us to pray for our clergy.

FWIW, the CMRI gets an A grade on the points you brought up.  They do not act in such ways.

The CMRI is a terribly screwed up Schuckardt group anyway, best to keep them out of any comparisons with the resistance or SSPX - they are in another world all their own.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: TKGS

Ladislaus's comment above is out of line.

That was a joke, but a joke that was intended to make a point.

Where's the line between legitimate authority and cult-like micromanagement / control?

Pastor (normally) does have legitimate authority to exercise on behalf of souls and for the good of the parish.  Where does he go over the line?  Not an easy black-and-white question.

That's why I started this thread.

There was another thread today about the Cebu City "Diktat" where the SSPX authorities warned that anyone promoting the Resistance would be denied the Sacraments.

It got me thinking; how far can a chapel morally go to protect itself against the "competition" -- and should there be there any "competition", properly speaking, between a Catholic chapel and another Catholic chapel?

Unless you have to competing CULTS which are merely herds of cattle owned and harvested by their respective warlords. If that is the case, then of course you want exclusivity, cut-throat competition, etc.

But in the Trad world, I think we should all have the LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE to decide which Traditional Catholic chapel we think it's most prudent to attend.

Basically I'm all for a limited form of religious liberty and ecuмenism -- when applied strictly to Traditional Catholicism. We should be left to our own free will/judgement/conscience/virtue of prudence about which TRAD CATHOLIC group we will attend.

Because the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, and is the sole means of salvation - It alone is the Truth. But beyond that, which TRAD GROUP has the exclusive stamp of approval from Jesus Christ himself? None of them -- or all of them, depending on how you want to look at it

So all the things that apply to false religions (error has no rights, acquiescence to Catholic authority, etc.) DO NOT APPLY when you're talking about ONE TRAD GROUP vs ANOTHER. Get it?

I would agree with this as long as the groups were on the same page theologically, which I would think they would be if they are truly Trad.  I don't think a Trad chapel should deny Sacraments to any Trad whether they are SSPX, Resistance or Sedevacantist.