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Offline Matthew

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  • In 1971, how many Tridentine Masses were offered with the full approval of the "Conciliar Church" authorities?

    In other words, "How many Tridentine Masses were offered in 1971 in union with Rome, by priests in good standing with Rome?"

    Do you suppose "0" because it was before 1984, etc.?

    I doubt it. Don't you suppose that many older priests were allowed to say the Tridentine Mass for small groups, or at least privately?

    Older monks in monasteries, etc.?

    Do you suppose it took time to effect such a change (Tridentine --> Novus Ordo) church-wide?

    Wouldn't they tolerate "intransigents" a bit more at the beginning, as they were pretty busy putting their Revolution into practice?
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    Offline Matto

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 04:41:55 PM »
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  • I know that some priests were allowed to continue to say the old Mass, but not many. I think Josemaria Escriva was one of those priests. So the answer is not 0.
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    Offline Raphaela

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 05:34:07 PM »
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  • The permission for "priests over 70" was given in 1970, I think, but the Masses had to be "private" and Paul VI emphasized that the bishops had to be very sparing with the permission. Mgr. Alfred Gilbey was saying it in London, as he was over 70, but he wasn't supposed to have people present. But it was a new and impossible distinction.

    There were at least three retired priests saying Mass in Germany, one in the chapel of the Franciscan nuns of Perpetual Adoration in Mainz, another in a private chapel in Mainz and another in a side chapel of Munich cathedral. And Fr. Hans Milch, aged 47, in his parish church at Hattersheim outside Frankfurt. The bishops were turning a blind eye, but all were ordered to stop in 1976. Fr. Milch was the only one to continue. (I will post some of his writings soon.)

    In America Fr. Gomar de Pauw? Did he have permission?

    In England Fr. Oswald Baker was continuing in his parish church in Downham Market in Norfolk.

    And all the priests in the Diocese of Southwark near London, possibly. The English Bishops had decided on the First Sunday in Lent 1970 for the introduction of the New Mass. (The Bishops' Conferences in each country could set a date between 30 November 1969 and 28 November 1971, thanks to the Ottaviani Intervention. Before that, it was to have been Nov. 1969.) One English Bishop, Cyril Cowderoy, Archbishop of Southwark, delayed it on his own initiative until 29 November 1970.

    And an Archbishop in Fribourg in Switzerland also delayed it on his own initiative, but with the tacit approval of the local bishop.

    Offline Raphaela

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 05:54:41 PM »
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  • There were other English priests saying it as well, but I don't know if any had permission. It would probably be a case of their bishops or orders ignoring them. Some of these helped the SSPX when it first came to England.

    Fr. Gordon Bancks
    Fr. John Flanagan (mentor of Bishop Williamson?)
    Fr. Clifford Beecroft
    Fr. Thomas Glover
    Fr. Anthony Chadwick (not the younger Anglican of the same name with a website)
    Fr. John Coulson
    Fr. Hugh Thwaites, SJ (perhaps)
    Fr. Bernard Enright, SJ (perhaps)


    Offline Raphaela

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 06:15:17 PM »
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  • And, of course, Fr. Francis Hannifin, Fr. Pfeiffer's old pastor!

    Quote
    Father drew his first pastorship at St. Michael's in Fairfield, Kentucky, starting there in 1961. When the Council opened in 1962 and closed in 1965, the Archdiocese organized deanery meetings in order to bring everyone up to speed. His first deanery meeting left Father disgusted and he never went back. While he didn't spend much time belaboring a theological argument, his instinct of faith enabled him to diagnose the problem and avoid the changes. Father remained firm in his attachment to the Traditional Mass and with the support of some faithful Catholics, St. Michael's became a center of attraction for those who wanted to stay faithful to the old Mass.

    Shortly after Father's 25th anniversary, which took place in 1970 as the post-Conciliar revolution was gaining steam, Father sensed danger in the air and with his practical sagacity bought a mobile home. He understood that he was not going to follow the new direction the Churchmen were taking and he wanted to be ready to move out when the time came. That time wasn't long in coming. Shortly thereafter the bishop hinted at and prepared his transfer. Father knew that this was a move to dislodge the geographical monument to the old Mass that St. Michael's was becoming, and he could see that his fidelity to the Mass would only mean more and more transfers. Accordingly, being over 60 [in 1972], he opted to retire and did so retaining all his privileges.

    The inevitable was to be expected; a priest, public man that he is, does not do things for himself alone and whither he goes, be it for good or for ill, he leads people along after him. And so Fr. Hannifin saw Providence guide him to a private farm upon which he parked his trailer and built a chapel on a little hill in Boston, KY. He named the chapel and the hill Our Lady of Mount Carmel, and the first Mass was said in the unfinished structure on bare floors on July 16, 1972.


    From his obituary by Fr. Tim Pfeiffer in The Angelus of May 2001, but no longer available in their archive. It's on this website somewhere, though.


    Offline Jehanne

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 06:27:58 PM »
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  • The Saint Benedict Center in Massachusetts claims to have been celebrating the Tridentine Mass since 1976:

    http://www.saintbenedict.com/monastery/masstimes.html

    From everything that I can tell, Father Feeney celebrated it exclusively prior to that time.

    Offline poche

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #6 on: June 22, 2013, 02:17:03 AM »
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  • During the 1970s I read an article in the Sunday Visitor about a priest in New Jersey who said the TLM at a chapel. He said that he had the approval of Pope Paul VI himself. His declaration that he had papal approval was never disputed.

    Offline Stubborn

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #7 on: June 22, 2013, 03:37:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    The Saint Benedict Center in Massachusetts claims to have been celebrating the Tridentine Mass since 1976:

    http://www.saintbenedict.com/monastery/masstimes.html

    From everything that I can tell, Father Feeney celebrated it exclusively prior to that time.


    Yes, we went to SBC in 1973 specifically for the Mass - I don't think he had permission - but either way he never said the new mass.
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine


    Offline Stubborn

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #8 on: June 22, 2013, 04:06:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    In 1971, how many Tridentine Masses were offered with the full approval of the "Conciliar Church" authorities?

    In other words, "How many Tridentine Masses were offered in 1971 in union with Rome, by priests in good standing with Rome?"

    Do you suppose "0" because it was before 1984, etc.?

    I doubt it. Don't you suppose that many older priests were allowed to say the Tridentine Mass for small groups, or at least privately?

    Older monks in monasteries, etc.?

    Do you suppose it took time to effect such a change (Tridentine --> Novus Ordo) church-wide?

    Wouldn't they tolerate "intransigents" a bit more at the beginning, as they were pretty busy putting their Revolution into practice?



    By 1971, I think that certainly less than 1% were still "allowed" to celebrate the TLM - in the USA anyway.

    The Great Sacrilege was written in 1971 by Fr. Wathen, who was among "the first to recognize the atrocities of the "New Mass" and its sure course of auto-demolition within the Church when most were buying [or had already bought] into the rhetoric from Rome sight unseen."

    Seems to me like in the span of just 4 or 5 years, they blanketed the country and the world in stages. Once the wheels were put in motion, "intransigents" got rolled over whenever there was one, regardless of whether in the beginning or not. The problem is that there were not nearly enough intransigents to stop the machine.


     
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline claudel

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #9 on: June 22, 2013, 06:13:36 PM »
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  • I have been told that Father Peter Rofrano (+2007), the longtime pastor of the shrine church of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on East 115th Street in Manhattan, may never have stopped saying the TLM—although whether that was with archdiocesan permission or in the absence of enforcement to the contrary, I couldn't say. I believe he also said the NOM, unfortunately, but again, I can't say for sure, since I regularly attended his masses only during the last three or four years of his life.

    When I saw him say Mass, there was at least one way in which he retained the pre-1962 missal: he said "Benedicamus Domino" at the Dismissal whenever the Mass didn't have a Gloria. Since he prayed the Canon silently, of course, I don't know whether he included the John XXIII addition to the Communicantes, and I certainly didn't have the nerve to ask him.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #10 on: June 22, 2013, 08:30:50 PM »
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  • I attended Father Gomar de Pauw's Mass many times when I lived in
    Washington, DC in the 1960's-1970's.
    At that time, I served Mass at St. Dominic's in Wasington, DC. I made
    it common knowledge that I attended's Fr. Gomar de Pauw's  Mass,
    And never got into any trouble because there was a lots of dispute
    between the Dominican Fathers about the changes in the Mass. Matter
    a fact, I had support.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #11 on: June 22, 2013, 08:42:15 PM »
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  • Fr. Wathen never said the Novus Ordo. Some old priests were granted celebrets.

    Also Brompton oratory in England was granted an indult and kept the TLM past 1969. That's about all I know of.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 02:37:26 PM »
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  • .


    This has been a very edifying thread.  I'm glad to see that
    members are aware of this topic, for the facts here ought to be
    kept safe from corruption.  These things are the stuff that gets
    forgotten as time goes by.  

    Look at the early Church and see that we really have no idea
    how they elected a new Pope or how Mass was said or
    what the precepts of the Church were and so forth. All of it
    has been lost over the centuries.  

    So too, the facts of which priests continued to say the CTLM
    past 1969 and which of those had 'permission' to do so are
    things that will be practically IMPOSSIBLE to verify in years
    to come if someone doesn't document it real soon!!



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 02:39:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raphaela
    The permission for "priests over 70" was given in 1970, I think, but the Masses had to be "private" and Paul VI emphasized that the bishops had to be very sparing with the permission. Mgr. Alfred Gilbey was saying it in London, as he was over 70, but he wasn't supposed to have people present. But it was a new and impossible distinction.

    There were at least three retired priests saying Mass in Germany, one in the chapel of the Franciscan nuns of Perpetual Adoration in Mainz, another in a private chapel in Mainz and another in a side chapel of Munich cathedral.

    And Fr. Hans Milch, aged 47, in his parish church at Hattersheim outside Frankfurt. The bishops were turning a blind eye, but all were ordered to stop in 1976. Fr. Milch was the only one to continue. (I will post some of his writings soon.)

    In America Fr. Gomar de Pauw? Did he have permission?

    In England Fr. Oswald Baker was continuing in his parish church in Downham Market in Norfolk.

    And all the priests in the Diocese of Southwark near London, possibly. The English Bishops had decided on the First Sunday in Lent 1970 for the introduction of the New Mass. (The Bishops' Conferences in each country could set a date between 30 November 1969 and 28 November 1971, thanks to the Ottaviani Intervention. Before that, it was to have been Nov. 1969.) One English Bishop, Cyril Cowderoy, Archbishop of Southwark, delayed it on his own initiative until 29 November 1970.

    And an Archbishop in Fribourg in Switzerland also delayed it on his own initiative, but with the tacit approval of the local bishop.






    I eagerly await seeing the writings of Fr. Hans Milch!!!




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    Offline Wessex

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    How many Tridentine Masses offered with Roman approval in 1971?
    « Reply #14 on: June 27, 2013, 07:33:27 AM »
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  • There was the famous 'Agatha Christie' indult for which celebrities, some non-Catholic, petitioned Cardinal Heenan in Westmister for aesthetic reasons! And the Latin Mass Society was in existence in the 1970s to promote the handful of Latin Masses available. The usual response though when asking the new breed of priests in those days was to accuse you of disobeying the pope! This famous clerical obedience thing again! Over the years we have of course learnt to differentiate between those trads that just want the old Mass (form) and those that want the old doctrine (substance).

     

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