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Author Topic: How do I join the resistance?  (Read 4084 times)

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Offline epiphany

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Re: How do I join the resistance?
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2022, 05:34:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on March 28, 2022, 04:07:22 PM
    In that case (which might be true), then the technicality of being a "vagus" doesn't matter, and what matters more is the SPIRIT of vagary.

    Let's put it this way: There's no way that a priest like Fr. X or Fr. Y (names withheld) who chose to heed the siren song and went off to "be their own boss" are every bit as good/promising/holy for parking your soul (and those of your family) as a priest who seeks out and submits himself to a good Traditional bishop who is doing God's work -- fighting the good fight.

    Which priest is more in keeping with the spirit of the Church, the spirit of his vocation, the spirit of the Priesthood? Remember, FUNDAMENTALLY a priest is a bishop's helper, full stop. A priest who makes no effort (or makes excuses) why he can't submit to one of the MANY TRAD BISHOPS doing God's own work -- such a priest is GOING to be inferior and have issues at the very least. His whole apostolate will be flawed by his pride, willfulness, and lack of obedience.

    Remember how God works. He doesn't need one more priest. He doesn't need ten more priests. What He wants is JUST A FEW holy priests completely surrendered to His Holy Will. Always seeking and trying to do God's will. That's all God "needs" from Trad priests. The idea that a priest can work better off on his own -- that's a delusion of the devil. ALWAYS. Just because the Novus Ordo happened doesn't mean Obedience is obsolete. Obedience is STILL extremely important, especially for a priest. Especially if he wants his apostolate to bear fruit.

    The letter of the law killeth. The spirit giveth life. The Pharisees were masters of keeping the letter of the law.
    Spirit of vagary...  I like it.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #16 on: March 28, 2022, 06:01:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on March 28, 2022, 05:34:10 PM
    Spirit of vagary...  I like it.

    Just think about it.  If you were a priest before Vatican II who just went around saying Mass without being subject to some kind of superior, that would be a really unacceptable situation.  But the Conciliar crisis changes all that, and this is a completely different situation.  We're back in the catacombs and the days of the Arian crisis.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #17 on: March 28, 2022, 08:33:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 28, 2022, 06:01:32 PM
    Just think about it.  If you were a priest before Vatican II who just went around saying Mass without being subject to some kind of superior, that would be a really unacceptable situation.  But the Conciliar crisis changes all that, and this is a completely different situation.  We're back in the catacombs and the days of the Arian crisis.
    The Church is in crisis, but a priest must still submit to authority, jurisdictional authority or not.  There are plenty of traditional bishops around for a priest to work with.  

    And i despise using the term "in crisis", for that is the excuse the Pfeiffer clan use for everything they do
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #18 on: March 28, 2022, 08:44:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on March 28, 2022, 08:33:52 PM
    And i despise using the term "in crisis", for that is the excuse the Pfeiffer clan use for everything they do
    If the Pfeiffer clan decided to (what ever) would you refuse to (what ever)? "In crisis" is correct terminology for the mess we are in.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #19 on: March 28, 2022, 08:51:42 PM »
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    • Quote
    The Church is in crisis, but a priest must still submit to authority, jurisdictional authority or not.  
    This sounds nice but it has no practical meaning.  Take Fr Ringrose in VA, as an example.  He’s been at the same chapel for what, 30 years?  What would change if he was “under a bishop”?  Nothing.  He says a private mass at a private chapel for people who show up, or not.  He has no authority over them and they have no obligation to be there.  He’s not moving and there’s no reason to.  Being “under a bishop” changes nothing. 


    So, your nice-sounding definition, when jurisdiction is absent/lacking/unobtainable is meaningless.  
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    Offline Jr1991

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #20 on: March 28, 2022, 08:56:01 PM »
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    • Make sure to stay away from prior Toupee(Sanford, FL) and his missions. They only care about money and sucking up to Bergolio to pick up more Novus Ordo attendees.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #21 on: March 29, 2022, 08:14:36 AM »
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #22 on: March 29, 2022, 08:26:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on March 28, 2022, 08:44:03 PM
    If the Pfeiffer clan decided to (what ever) would you refuse to (what ever)? .
    Yes
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #23 on: March 29, 2022, 08:27:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 28, 2022, 08:51:42 PM
    This sounds nice but it has no practical meaning.  Take Fr Ringrose in VA, as an example.  He’s been at the same chapel for what, 30 years?  What would change if he was “under a bishop”?  Nothing.  He says a private mass at a private chapel for people who show up, or not.  He has no authority over them and they have no obligation to be there.  He’s not moving and there’s no reason to.  Being “under a bishop” changes nothing.


    So, your nice-sounding definition, when jurisdiction is absent/lacking/unobtainable is meaningless. 
    Every priest should have a bishop superior.  And there is no reason for them not to.

    Where does Fr. Ringrose obtain his holy oils?  Canon law says they must be disposed of every year and new ones obtained.  Does he behave the way of Fr. Hewko and continually "top them off"?  Or of b. Slupski (God rest his soul), who used holy oils that were 30-40 years old?  
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #24 on: March 29, 2022, 01:44:21 PM »
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    • That video should have had a hyperlink that said, "If you can hear this, you are the Resistance." Sorry, I don't know why it didn't show up. :cowboy:
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #25 on: March 29, 2022, 04:15:54 PM »
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    • Quote
    Every priest should have a bishop superior.  And there is no reason for them not to.
    You’re just repeating yourself but not understanding the problems with your statement.  Canon Law defines a “superior” as a bishop who provides jurisdiction/faculties. But since no Trad bishop has such to give, then what’s the purpose of a “superior”?


    Fr Ringrose is in VA.  +Zendajas is hundreds of miles away in CT.  Can you provide some concrete actions/steps that would change if Fr Ringrose chose +Zendejas as a superior?  

    1.  Is Fr Ringrose supposed to sign over his chapel property and $?  

    2.  Is he supposed to have weekly/monthly phone calls with a bishop?

    3.  Something else?

    None of this is in canon law, mind you, so please explain.  
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #26 on: March 30, 2022, 12:46:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 29, 2022, 04:15:54 PM
    You’re just repeating yourself but not understanding the problems with your statement.  Canon Law defines a “superior” as a bishop who provides jurisdiction/faculties. But since no Trad bishop has such to give, then what’s the purpose of a “superior”?


    Fr Ringrose is in VA.  +Zendajas is hundreds of miles away in CT.  Can you provide some concrete actions/steps that would change if Fr Ringrose chose +Zendejas as a superior? 

    1.  Is Fr Ringrose supposed to sign over his chapel property and $? 

    2.  Is he supposed to have weekly/monthly phone calls with a bishop?

    3.  Something else?

    None of this is in canon law, mind you, so please explain. 
    Whats the purpose of a superior who doesn't have jurisdiction?  To encourage the priest to keep the Faith and not go nutty, to provide the priest with holy oils (replaced yearly), to provide confirmations to the laity of the chapel the priest services.

    "concrete actions/steps that would change if Fr Ringrose chose +Zendejas as a superior? "  see above 

    1. I dont see why fr. Ringrose should have to sign over his chapel and $.  Do all trad bishops require this?  I've only heard of the sspx doing it.

    2. I don’t know.  I am not clergy.

    3. See #2 above.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #27 on: March 30, 2022, 05:23:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on March 28, 2022, 08:33:52 PM
    The Church is in crisis, but a priest must still submit to authority, jurisdictional authority or not.  There are plenty of traditional bishops around for a priest to work with. 
    Since you recommend Fr. Sretenovik, what bishop is he under?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #28 on: March 30, 2022, 05:30:13 PM »
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    • Quote
    Whats the purpose of a superior who doesn't have jurisdiction?  To encourage the priest to keep the Faith and not go nutty, to provide the priest with holy oils (replaced yearly), to provide confirmations to the laity of the chapel the priest services.

    "concrete actions/steps that would change if Fr Ringrose chose +Zendejas as a superior? "  see above

    1. I dont see why fr. Ringrose should have to sign over his chapel and $.  Do all trad bishops require this?  I've only heard of the sspx doing it.

    2. I don’t know.  I am not clergy.

    3. See #2 above.
    Ok, then according to your definitions, and because Trads live in a non-jurisdictional world, it is IMPOSSIBLE to say that Fr Ringrose (as an example) doesn't have a superior.  And it is also impossible to know if ANY non-sspx priest has a superior, because your only qualifications are 1) encouragement, which is a private matter and 2) holy oils, which again, is not a public transfer or acceptance.  3) confirmations can only happen every 3-4 years for small chapels, so this isn't a good test either.


    Bottomline:  There are plenty of "independent" priests who have chapels where +Williamson and +Zendejas have visited, provided confirmations and (privately) provided holy oils.  Thus, your original statement regarding the need for "independent" priests to have a superior, is (for lack of a better word) uneducated, because you have no proof that such priests even exist.  Such priests can have superiors and you wouldn't even know, based on public actions.

    So you should just keep quiet about the matter and quit judging priests.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How do I join the resistance?
    « Reply #29 on: March 30, 2022, 07:29:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on March 28, 2022, 08:33:52 PM
    The Church is in crisis, but a priest must still submit to authority, jurisdictional authority or not.  There are plenty of traditional bishops around for a priest to work with.

    That's simply untrue.  You've made this up.  Even before Vatican II you occasionally had priests reporting to superiors who weren't bishops.  SSPX has had two superiors now who weren't bishops, and the bishops reported to THEM.  Archbishop Lefebvre wanted it that way to make sure no one believed that the bishops were acting as if they had ordinary jurisdiction, which they lack.

    Jurisdiction is the key not "priest must report to a bishop".  Bishops without jurisdiction are like auxiliary bishops.  They don't have any more authority than a priest.  Their only role is to help the bishops provide the Sacraments that ordinary priests cannot.
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